Ep24: How to be a hands-on dad and a hands-on leader with James Fox

James Fox is the outgoing CEO of Havas. First and foremost though, in his own words, he’s a dad, and in this conversation he talks about the truth of being a working parent and a leader in adland with refreshing honesty and perspective. It shouldn’t be unusual for an adland leader to say that it’s OK and natural for parents to put their children first, but it is, and in this conversation James talks about how he manages the parenting/working combination.

James is also fascinating on the topic of the ‘shadow board’ at Havas, which enables people across the organisation to ask him questions about anything – anonymously.

Key takeaways:

• Therapy is for everyone, not just for people in crisis
• Open communication is everything, between your peers and across your organisation
• Parental leave for dads is a wonderful thing; dads returning to work also need structured support

Resources:

NABS Managers’ Mindsets

NABS Advice Line

Transcript

Louise (00:03.498)
This week, my guest is James Fox. James Fox is CEO of Have Us London, a role he’s held since March 2023, having been promoted to lead the creative agency just a year after joining as its chief client officer. James has spearheaded a number of mental wellness initiatives at Have Us, and he believes that creating culture bursting work without busting our own culture is the way to go.

This approach has seen the agency deliver some of its highest profile work to date, includes Vanishes wonderful Me, My Autism and I advert. This became the most awarded campaign in Have Us London history. James has spearheaded a number of mental wellness initiatives during his time as CEO, which includes free therapy and the creation of a shadow board to hold the leadership team to account. of that later. James is also a proud dad to two boys. Welcome James to the NABS Podcast. How are you doing today?

James Fox (01:00.371)
Thank you for having me. Yeah, very, very good. mean, I’m a little tired this morning getting up after looking after two children this morning and I forgot my glasses. So that’s a classic moment of being a parent, most probably.

Louise (01:13.95)
I love the fact that you shared that because a lot of people listening will have had various snafus relating to parenting at least this week, if not today, I know I have. So thank you for that. I’ve wanted to speak to you since I read a piece that you wrote for campaign ages ago and you were talking about parenting and dadding and being in the industry. And I thought it was absolutely brilliant. So we’ll talk a lot about that today. But first of all, I’d like to start off by finding out a bit about your own mental wellness journey.

James Fox (01:23.896)
Thank you.

Louise (01:42.868)
What challenges have you had to face?

James Fox (01:45.464)
sure. It’s been a bit it’s been quite a short one, if I’m honest. It really started when I was in New York, I would say, when after introducing a brilliant mental maintenance partner very called self space, who we had recently brought into as a partnership with the agency that I was working at the time. And so got introduced to the world of, of therapy, I suppose at that moment, and

And I think at that point, it came with all the stigmatism of stereotyped. Do people have problems in order to have therapy? Should you be speaking to someone like a doctor so that you can access that? Should you be given a diagnosis or anything like that? the reality and the truth of that was, actually no is the answer to all of those things. When I was first introduced to the founders, they talked very brilliantly about

what they provide and they put it so simply that we spend a lot of time looking and caring, looking after and caring for various other aspects of our lives. And we talk about our diet, we talk about our health, going to the gym and we spend a lot of money on that. And we maintain, we maintain that sort of healthy lifestyle, but we don’t do a lot of mental maintenance, we maintain our mental health. there is a huge daily attack, I think, on us mentally.

all the time from various different angles. And actually you don’t need to be in a, a diagnosis situation to, to advocate or for, or to realize that actually talking about stuff, understanding yourself a bit better, knowing how history relates to how you are as a person or how you react in certain situations could be triggers to various different things. Just knowing who you are and how you experience the world through the lens of being able to talk to somebody about it is actually a really important thing.

I am and so that was where it that was where it began. I mean, it was sort of three or four, maybe four or five years ago. And and it was really awkward to begin with, because you also have to be willing to talk quite openly about stuff that you most probably haven’t talked about ever before to somebody who doesn’t know you and is very objective, but has the ability to cut through and give you advice and guidance around why you’re feeling in certain ways. So so yeah, it started five years ago. It was it was a it was really awkward.

James Fox (04:09.314)
But it was sort of regenerative, I think, as a process for me understanding who I was.

Louise (04:15.818)
Was there anything in particular that you’ve faced that you found really challenging that you have spoken with your therapist about knowing full well that therapy sessions are supposed to be confidential? I’m basically asking you to download the contents.

James Fox (04:23.587)
my-

I mean, of course. mean, look, there’s, there’s loads of things you start so top level and surface level on just how you’re feeling. And then you get to really understand how certain things that have happened in your life impact how you are and who you are and how you behave and act even right down to the friendships that you have, the biases that you might have, the relationships you have with your friends, your family, work, how you attribute, how you attribute your day to day, even the relationships that you have with your own family and your own children.

And yeah, I mean, there’s there’s loads of stuff, know, loads of loads of things that happened to me when I was growing up the situation, the environment that I was growing up in. We have talked a lot about that and helped me understand some of those elements that have that have made me who I am. But I spent a lot of time on also my relationship with work, my relationship with my family and and finding a better balance with that, which is

which is incredibly, incredibly hard. I think that at that point, I placed a huge amount of emphasis on my professional career and my work being the thing that I was underlining my whole personality and character around. And that is quite an unhealthy relationship that you can have. And actually,

when I’d gone down that path too far, I’d sort of almost forgotten a little bit about who I actually was and my personal life and my friendships and my family and the relationships I actually want to have and need to have much more deeply than I do with a working relationship. that became a bit of a journey for me, really, to sort of help pull back from that.

Louise (06:14.688)
What do you think the point was when you went from someone who was placing work above your family to someone who is quite frankly, one of the only men I’m aware of in the industry who’s so brilliantly vocal about working, being a working dad and who wants to have that hands-on involvement with your kids as much as you can. Cause that’s, that’s a real turnaround. What happens?

James Fox (06:21.09)
Mm.

James Fox (06:37.642)
I mean, you’ve to make a choice. I mean, that’s inevitably what happens because work will always take. And you’re in a situation where you need to give to your family and your children. And if that balance is unequal, you can’t do both. And I’ve always sort of talked about, well, I personally sort of talked to myself about this, which is, like, I have three children.

Like when you are, when you find yourself in the position of being in charge of stuff, I’ve got three children. I’ve got what I class is a angry developing teenager with aching knees and all the hormonal changes and the evolutions and things that you would expect from that moment in life, which is effectively the agencies that you work with. And then I’ve got two small children who are one six and one two.

who both need their various different, very different relationships with with with them. So we got to choose, you got to choose. and the and the the I suppose the hard thing between that is that choice is never an easy one to make. Because both of those things pull you in very opposite directions. Both of them very contradict each other quite dramatically. And

And there are very difficult blurred lines at times to toe as well with those two things.

Louise (08:15.712)
So what’s an example of those difficult blurred lines and how does that make you feel and how do you manage it?

James Fox (08:22.126)
Well, I mean, look, it can get down to real practical examples. Do I have to work at the weekend this weekend? Do I have to work late? Do I have to be in early? Can I not be in attendance for a school event? Can I be there on a birthday that’s really important? Can I be mentally available so I’m not exhausted and knackered when your kids might want to make dens at eight in the morning, but you’re exhausted after a 70-hour week?

You know, it’s all of those things. They’re all real life things that you are constantly deciding between. I’ve got better at making sure that I’m at everything that I can be at and that I can be available as I possibly can be for my children, knowing that over time I’ve sort of come to feel OK with the fact that the things that happen in work are often

important, but they’re not urgent. And there will never be a moment where you reflect on missing out on work. There will always be a moment where you reflect on missing out, being there for your children. And so that’s the that’s that you’ve got to make sure you are you’re really happy with.

Louise (09:37.824)
Do you have moments where you’re just, you’re trying to be present, but you’re not? And did the rest of the family realize that?

James Fox (09:47.852)
Yeah, I mean, all the time, all the time. mean, work doesn’t work doesn’t stop from from just being in the office. You know, it’s not like you walk in, clock in, walk out, clock off and everything’s quiet. I’m thinking about things all of the time and and it’s and it’s future planning all of the time. so it so you are holding a lot in your in your mental capacity when you’re running when you are being when you are part of running a business and you.

you don’t have to realize that that’s most probably 80 % of your mental capacity and you’re trying to squeeze the other personal stuff in. And so yeah, they are really aware about it. know, technology has made it so that we are completely flexible. We can be complete flexibly working and available all the time if we need to be. And to some degree, being in a creative industry and being on the service end of being a partner for clients who need stuff from you and who are reliant on you means that your availability is also incredibly important.

And again, availability is an equal balance between that and your children. So yeah, I mean, I can be in a room, but sometimes not mentally there. And that has caused lots of issues at times where I should be more present, but I’m writing stuff down or I’m emailing or I’m responding to. And my family has been incredibly supportive of that for the most part and understanding.

And, and have, and there’s also a cool time on when it’s not good, it’s not rights to do that anymore. And you need to put that stuff down, but it’s not to say that like it impacts my, children. mean, my six year old is incredibly aware when I’m, when I’m work, when I’m working at home is has, and you can see over time has changed his approach relationship with me when I’m at home and visibly working.

to being much more standoffish and leaving me alone to get those things done rather than trying to get my attention to do something else. And it’s sort of sad to acknowledge that, but again, it’s also a reality that I’m in and they’re in as well with me.

Louise (12:02.294)
So you can make that choice, but it’s kind of up to a point because you’ve still got overlap between work and life.

James Fox (12:08.801)
There’s total overlap. There’s total overlap now, right? mean, work, there is no work-life balance. There is just work, there is life and work and they are completely interlocked with one another. And it is on you to put up a clear distinction and a barrier between when you need to turn off those things so that you can be fully present. But it’s so difficult.

It’s so difficult. I’ll go to bed thinking about work. I’ll wake up thinking about work. And I’ll be at the weekend with friends, family. And I’ll still be thinking about what’s coming up or what’s happening, that we need to be the fixing, changing, and sorting out. It’s very, very difficult to turn that thought process off. Almost impossible.

Louise (12:38.059)
Mm.

Louise (13:00.502)
So I’ve got two questions.

Firstly, how do you stop yourself from going into burnout with all of this stuff going on all the time, as many of us do? Is it that ongoing therapy or is there something else you do? Secondly, making a complete assumption here. As a CEO, I would think it’s easier to say, okay, bye everyone, I’m off to be with my family. And if you are at a different position in work, perhaps rising through the ranks, I don’t know, whatever job you are, but you’re not the CEO. And if you have a…

James Fox (13:15.075)
Mm.

James Fox (13:22.325)
Yes!

James Fox (13:25.911)
Hmm.

James Fox (13:29.859)
Mm.

Louise (13:31.624)
a team leader who’s maybe not that sympathetic to you trying to juggle or maybe your overall culture is not one that’s supportive of working parents, how can you actually say, I really need to leave now, nursery’s going to shut, I have to go and get my child without feeling stigmatized and being punished for it?

James Fox (13:49.686)
Yeah, totally. mean, look, the burnout bit is interesting. I look, I’ve had burnout before, and I’ve had to take time off for it. And that was a real learning moment for me about taking on too much. And it took a long time to sort of clear that and understand the processes that I were putting in place that led to it. That was a process that I went through with self-space in order to understand.

I’m much more cognitively aware of those character traits that I have that can lead to that. And so I’m very protective of not feeling those moments. And if I do, to pull back away, to pull back from them. But there are lots of things, right? It can be a drink on a Friday night, right? It can be a takeaway. can be bouncing on a trampoline with your kids. It can be for a walk on the beach. It can be…

being with your dog, it can, it can be going to the gym. It can be switching off your phone like at 10 o’clock. So you’re not, you’re not doom scrolling or, you know, or just watching a movie or being static for a bit. You know, there, there were lots of those things and it’s totally different for everybody. Like I go to the gym a lot. I’m, I’m outside a lot. playing with my kids a lot. And, and I

And I all know my my oldest now really is wake me up and be like, he woke me up at 530 the other morning and asking if I would go and play football outside in the dark with him. And I was like, yeah, let’s go. Let’s go. Everyone was asleep. Let’s go. Right. But you got you got to be really you got to go and catch those things. Because, again, that was that was wicked. And that was that was a moment where you don’t you don’t feel like ever being at work. But I think I

Louise (15:26.848)
What did you do? Brilliant.

James Fox (15:48.106)
From a cultural perspective inside an office, you’ve got to be honest. You’ve got to be honest. You’ve got to be transparent. You can’t have the stigma of parents feeling bad that they have to go and look after their children. The most important thing in their lives are their children. And work is second to that. And I think there have been places that don’t acknowledge that. There are places and cultures that will acknowledge the fact that work is the first priority.

But when it comes to your children, children don’t come and go. They are there for you all the time. They are the most important thing you’ve most probably decided on having. And work needs to fit in around that. And you know what? Put it in your diary. You’re going to go do pickup. Everyone understands and knows. And talk about it and be open about it. And to stop you from doing things, you need to make sure you’ve got a brilliant team around you. You’ve got to make sure that

The people around you are capable of delivering on what they can. They’re world class and excellent. And you have some people who also look out for you. I’m just one person in the leadership team. We have an incredible partnership. And we are all joined at the hip. Me, Vicki McGuire, and Matt Springer, who’s just arrived, along with Lorenzo, our chief design officer, along with our heads of, we are fully joined up to understand that if one of us is

and that could exhausted, tired, or we’ve got other priorities, or we need to be there for our children, our families, wives, friends, that we acknowledge that and that we we can stand in and support for that too. So that is hugely important to have that. If you don’t have it then it causes all sorts of issues.

Louise (17:35.2)
So what happens if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking, well, I don’t have that. And if I put pick up or child sick or whatever it is in the diary, my manager or my team members or whoever it is would not be supportive. If you’re just not working in a supportive, like unfortunately those unsupportive cultures do exist in some quarters. So what do you do? Do you look for another job?

James Fox (17:51.798)
I mean, yeah, I mean, I mean, mean, they look, unfortunately, they do. I mean, they do. They do exist. And, and sadly, it does it comes it that that culture and that openness does come from the top down. And I would say, look, if, you are really struggling, then you most probably already know what the answer is. And, and if you find yourself in a relationship with work where

they’re a little bit more open to having a conversation about changing the way in which you work in order to make that feel better, then you’ve to take advantage of and have the conversation with the right people to do it and don’t feel ashamed of having it. Again, you’ll always regret not standing up for yourself in that situation.

Louise (18:44.706)
And on the honesty tip, I really love the fact that your LinkedIn title is Dad and CEO and that you’ve got one of your roles listed as family time slash head of bedtimes and snacks. Now, this is the only time I’ve seen a man write this on his profile. That is not to say that other men haven’t done it, but it’s the only one that I’ve seen. I have got Mummy on Mat Leave listed as one of my job titles because believe me, that’s a job. And I actually had a friend of mine contact me and said, you need to get that off.

James Fox (18:55.0)
Hmm.

Louise (19:13.888)
because that’s not going to go well for you. And I really disapproved of that comment. And I just wondered whether you ever had any similar negative feedback for your dad and CEO title. But on the other hand, when you’re hiring parents in your organization, are you more interested in the people who are out and proud and are saying mum or dad in their profile?

James Fox (19:33.89)
Well, look, I’m sorry that you got that negative feedback. think that’s that’s ridiculous. It’s so ridiculous. It’s part of life. It literally is a fundamental part of life. If you’re lucky enough to have a child in any form, so I’m nice. So it doesn’t it shouldn’t matter. Okay, I mean, I when I was between jobs, my last agency before I started have us London, I was like, I’ve got to update my LinkedIn, right? It can’t just be a blank a blank bit. And that was exactly what I was doing. It so

Louise (19:36.0)
Thank you. I know.

Louise (19:42.729)
Exactly.

James Fox (20:02.614)
It wasn’t there wasn’t any thoughts to the fact that I was making a statement. was that was literally what I was doing. I was at a bed times and snacks like that. That was that was my job for that moment. And I and I sort of loved it. So, you know, that it was it was fine. And I am a dad first and I’m a CEO second. And and so there’s that’s that’s true, too. But not again. Like that’s that’s how I that’s how I see myself.

Louise (20:08.97)
Yeah.

James Fox (20:31.118)
I’ve had any negative comments about it. And I would hate to think that there are then this sort of stereotype stigmatism between men and women who post these things, which there most probably is, which is deeply unfortunate. But I’ve never had, I’ve only ever had the, it’s so lovely to see you sort of doing that. I, why is it, why? I mean, it’s true, it’s…

Louise (20:40.65)
Yeah.

James Fox (20:57.388)
truthful, I didn’t realize that by doing that, would would land with land with any weight or statement whatsoever, other than that’s why.

Louise (21:07.306)
Yeah, completely agree with that. And I still have forgot what my friend said, some friend. Do you find at Have Us that dads tend to take their full paternity leave or are you not at that stage yet?

James Fox (21:18.37)
Yeah, yeah, they do. They do. Definitely. I didn’t answer your other question about the hiring piece because I should come back because it does relate to the question you’ve just asked us. We don’t ask whether your parents are not we don’t like we’re not looking for that we’re looking for diverse range of skill sets capabilities people and it’s people first. It really is. And so whether you’re a parent or not, it it’s about it’s about you your personality, your approach to work your

Louise (21:25.718)
yeah, yeah.

Louise (21:38.793)
Yep.

James Fox (21:48.33)
your mother able to deliver on on the role, your experience, whether whether you’re going to be a brilliant cultural fit in the business, what else do bring from a diverse perspective into the way we think, behave, approach stuff. So it shouldn’t it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t really it shouldn’t matter. But if you’re lucky enough to have a child in any form, in any way, then we have brilliant policies. I mean, I mean, parents here have equal parental leave.

at Harvest London, full six months and men take it. And this has been a relatively new thing, but we’ve had a couple of guys off. We had our CFO off for six months. He took six months off when he had his third child. We had our chief design officer, Lorenzo, who took six months off to be with his second child. And I can tell you quite emphatically that

Louise (22:34.195)
Amazing.

James Fox (22:47.212)
that time spent with your family and that child will be a better, stronger, deeper relationship than you ever, ever had with that first one during that period of time. guys feel very, very left out in water when there is a child that comes into their life. Not quite sure what to do, how to behave, what they can provide. They’re not really providing anything, so you’re filling gaps and doing as much as you possibly can. But creating a bond.

during those first six months for any parent is crucial. It’s so important to that relationship you have with them. But it’s been fascinating hearing them talk about it, because of course, they’ve talked about it in the same way as women talk about it. They feel like they’ve left their career behind, or they feel like, will this stop them from coming back and progressing in the way that they had approached the job site? The conversations are the same, whether you’re a woman. So you have to make sure that those transition plans are back correctly, that work doesn’t suddenly take over.

that critical relationship that you created and bond with your family and your new children can maintain and that that is properly supported and looked after. But I think it’s been a brilliant shift to understanding the role of both parents when having a child. And long may it continue for us.

Louise (24:06.302)
I think it’s such a good point about that ongoing support as well. Because whether you’re a mum or a dad, when you come back off of that leave, it can be a bit of a shock. And you also don’t want to just not see your child at all because you’re so overworked having come back after time away.

James Fox (24:22.636)
Yeah, I mean, I mean, couldn’t couldn’t agree more. And also everybody’s different. Right. Every single person is different. Every single person’s family situation is different. Every single child is different. We’ve got a returning mum who has come back this week. She said, like her first child went straight into the nursery and was brilliant. Her second child that she’s now coming back to work with, she’s like, has transitioned really badly. And it’s and it’s been very emotionally difficult. And

And so you know what, being able to come in late, being able to leave when you need to leave, being able to work from home when you need to work from home, returning back in a staggered way and not suddenly coming back five days a week, all of those, every single option that you need to ensure that you feel in control, happy and confident that your child is equally in the same place, you can do. And that’s absolutely the right way to approach it. And that goes for everybody.

Louise (25:19.094)
100%. I will also say that NABs, all of our dads have taken their full pat leave and that they are as able as any of the moms to go and do nursery pickup, to go to parents’ evenings, to work a pattern that suits them so they get time with their kids, which is all really good stuff. It’s great to hear that’s going on at Havas as well. Now.

Onto your mental wellness initiatives at Have Us. So what we’re doing at NABs is training up managers at the moment, giving them the skills they need to support their own mental wellness and their team’s mental wellness. It’s really key in this to create safe spaces where people can speak up. So I was really interested to hear about your shadow board initiative, which I mentioned at the top, in terms of creating a safe space for discussion. So can you tell us about that and how you think that supports everyone’s emotional health?

James Fox (25:45.602)
Mm.

James Fox (26:13.026)
Yeah, sure. mean, it was trial two years ago. And I read an article in the FT about a web big sort of organizations and predominantly the tech industry as you were bringing in shadow boards. Effectively, a group of people in various different levels, but lower to mid level within the business that wouldn’t often have a say or a voice necessarily on the runnings of the company, but a right at the heart of the business and a most probably feeling

the most pressure on executive decisions or things that are actually just happening day to day. And it was a really interesting read. I thought, our agency isn’t massive, but it made me realize that perhaps something like that might be really interesting just to try. So what we did is we asked someone to be a chair of the Shadow Board, which changes yearly. And we asked each department to put forward

one to two people mid level and below that could sit on the shadowboard. And then we created the ability for questions to be collated or any conversations that need to be collated. They would meet once a month to openly talk about the things that was being discussed or brought up or any issues, considerations, thoughts that the day to day people are dealing with.

They would, then, the chair of the shadow board, then bring that to me. And we discussed that monthly too, so that I can really hear and see what’s actually going on because there, there is, there is. It’s easy to find yourself in a sort of a leadership bubble with a team of five or six people thinking that a particular direction or a vision or a mission or a, or the way in which you might want to change or operate a talk or, or run the company or go off somewhere.

you can make all of those decisions really quickly and amongst yourself and you are you are obviously doing it while thinking of how it either benefits or impacts everybody else within the business. But you’re still doing it in the silo. And so and so hearing the things that they’re really dealing with, and also then discussing the things that we’re thinking about with them, can can provide a really sort of open and honest dialogue on on shared interests. And

James Fox (28:39.288)
So I can then deal with things that really deeply impact people on a day to day. I can bring things to them that we might be thinking about future. And they can also be included in that conversation. And it’s been brilliant. Just even down to our company meetings. If we have a company meeting, at the end of every company meeting, we have an anonymous shadow board Q &A. I don’t know what’s going to get asked.

but they’re curated by the chair of the shadow board. And then each person in the shadow board takes two or three questions that anonymously the whole agency has filtered into them. And that could be, and it’s so fascinating because it can be right down to, when are we taking time off for Christmas? Right to, I know the most important question in the world, right? Right up to, okay, what’s the…

Louise (29:23.828)
The important questions, quite frankly.

James Fox (29:33.006)
cultural evolution of the company as we move into 2025. And then there is a depth of every sort of question in between time. But what you realize is it really helps people understand and educate themselves on actually how a creative agency runs. And then you realize, actually, if you didn’t have this forum or you didn’t have a thing like a shadow board, all of these questions would be talked about amongst themselves. And there would never be the transparent

answers or educative moments that they might need to help, help feel better about some of the decisions that are being made. And so it works brilliantly. It’s like it’s mega awkward at times, because you don’t you have no idea what’s coming. And I and I don’t and I don’t want to, because I want it to be honest, as a response. And I’m all and, and we say, look, if we don’t know the answer, we’ll let you know, don’t know the answer, I’ll come back to you about it. But I think that provides a little bit more

safety and being honest and open with the discussions that we should all be having because it’s not a six when you run when you run 160 person agency, it’s not a six person agency. You can only run it, it can only be as brilliant as it possibly can be for our clients. If everybody is fully invested and can do their job brilliantly.

Louise (30:38.869)
Yeah.

Louise (30:48.362)
I think that thing about honesty and safety is really crucial. As I like to say, guesswork is stress work. And if people are making up information they think is happening, then they can actually get more work than if you just tell them what the situation is.

James Fox (30:52.995)
Yeah.

James Fox (31:03.416)
Totally. I couldn’t agree more. And we’ve seen it loads of times, right? We’ve seen how bubbles of points of view come up, and they start to affect or impact other people. And they’re not necessarily factual, or they could just be talked about quite openly about stuff. yeah, it’s been brilliant. gone through. This is now our, we’ll be coming into our third year on it. We refresh the team every year. And each time, those people bring in something slightly different.

which is lovely in terms of the process of how it works. So it’s worked really, really well for us and we’ll continue it.

Louise (31:39.552)
So we conducted our community consultation all years in 2023. And one of our key findings was that there is an assumption gap between generations where they’re kind of assuming things about their lived experience and combined with that, because of hybrid working, that learning by osmosis thing that always used to happen is not so prevalent. There are pros and cons to that. And I’m wondering how the Shadowboard project might help to maybe bring

James Fox (31:49.923)
Yeah.

Louise (32:09.496)
generational understanding together or, you know, make you realize what those younger cohorts are actually worried about and what they don’t know where they need help and vice versa.

James Fox (32:11.254)
in.

James Fox (32:18.222)
I mean, 100 % 100 % because they’re, they’re, yeah, of course, I mean, the generational divide is a real one. And that goes that goes for every everything, right? Whether your lifestyle, who you look what you listen to, what you watch, what you’re eating, what you’re doing, your your personal situation with whether you’re renting, but just absolutely every aspect of your life is generationally divided. And, and you’ll have different perspectives on that. The Shadowboard does help that.

What’s interesting as a part of that too is that you talked a little bit about like how we like to work and where you and what emphasis we put around that too. I mean, the Shadow Board has sort of also been instrumental in helping be part of developing our learning and development and training programs that have been really, important to bring in. Ours were quite outdated when I joined and that has been completely reviewed because

You need really good people need to know what they’re doing. They need to know what their salary pants are. Again, it’s open and honest. It’s open and honest and transparent. So need to know what their next career step is. They need to understand what progression looks like. They need to have access to training. If they’re not here, they need to need to be part of teams that where osmosis is, is a really important part of the creative process too. so yeah, they’ve been, they, it has been an important part of really understanding a much more modern way of creating.

creating a working environment that enables that to happen.

Louise (33:49.46)
I love all of that. I have always struggled in organizations where people aren’t talking and sharing answers and, being generous with their knowledge. So this is all really great stuff. How does the advertising and marketing community lift you up?

James Fox (33:56.43)
Yes.

James Fox (34:06.18)
my God. No, the thing that I’ve always loved about it is that positive creativity is it runs through everything we do. And look, every single one of us can have a bad day and it doesn’t, know, and it can be affected by anything. But I can tell you that working with

a body of people and within a creative industry where everybody believes that things are possible, where everyone is looking to create something that’s never existed before, where everyone is looking to make their own mark in some way, shape or form, that energy is magnetic. And so you can really lean on that sometimes and draw on that to

James Fox (34:58.382)
address some of the some of the the the struggles that you might be facing at any one time, because the struggle those struggles are real. But in the end, the creative industries really want to be it. It’s it’s it’s incredible. So I so I think so I think that you know, the it’s all about people. Our industry has always been about people. The brands we connect with with people are about people, the brands we create and products we create are people at the centre of it.

And it’s the people that make it special. And anyone that’s ever spent any time in the creative industry or within the creative agency will recognize that that culture of creativity, when it is flying, is you can feel it. And that makes you want to continue working within it.

Louise (35:44.416)
can’t believe we’ve come to the end of this, but we have. This has been such a brilliant chat. Last question. What’s the best lesson you’ve learned about how to support yourself? Ending with a big question.

James Fox (35:54.238)
God. That’s a big question. Don’t take the titles, don’t take the title too seriously. Genuinely. I think people place a lot of emphasis on being given a title to define who they are, and how they should behave and how they should act, when really, who they are was

Louise (36:08.524)
interesting. Tell us more about that.

James Fox (36:22.574)
arrived you at that point in the first place. And so remember that it’s you got to protect protect the person behind the title. Don’t let the title overshadow you. Don’t let it don’t let it put you above the station. You know better than anybody else. And, and, and remember that work will always come and go and and everything else in life won’t so find the right balance and and stick stand up for yourself when you need to when you need to give yourself some time.

Because if you work in a place that respects that, then that should work perfectly.

Louise (37:01.888)
James, you’ve been an absolute delight. I have really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much for being our guest. We will pop the links to everything we’ve discussed in the show notes, including James’s marvelous LinkedIn profile so you can put in your own parenting bits, should that be relevant to your life. James, thank you so much for joining us today.

James Fox (37:16.462)
You are more than welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed that. All right. Thanks Luis. Bye.

Louise (37:21.726)
Okay, thank you. Bye.