Ep38: From burnout to mental wellness advocate

NABS Yay List

NABS Walk and Talk

NABS All Ears

NABS Managers’ Mindsets

NABS Advice Line

 

Louise (00:01.238) 

Stephen Ballinger, known best to the industry as Bally, is chief commercial officer at Astus, where he leads the company’s commercial strategy and drives growth through innovative, value-focused deals. With more than 23 years of industry experience, Bally brings a strong background in business leadership and media trading, working closely with clients and media owners to create effective, transparent trading solutions.  

Very importantly, Bally is also a mental wellness advocate and he is a great supporter of NABS. 

Also with us today, we’ve got Annabel McCaffrey, head of support at NABS, who oversees our fantastic Advice Line team. Annabel is going to be sharing the NABS view on the challenges Stephen’s going to share with us today, as well as how companies such as Astus make a tangible difference to NABS’ vital work and thousands of adlanders each year. Hello and welcome to both of you. 

Steven Ballinger (00:54.35) 

Hello. 

Annabel McCaffrey (00:55.604) 

Hello. 

Louise (00:55.96) 

Bally, how are you doing? 

Steven Ballinger (00:57.573) 

Good, thank you, yeah. That’s a wonderful introduction. Thank you very much. 

Louise (01:02.078) 

Very glad you liked it. Annabel, how are you? 

Annabel McCaffrey (01:05.012) 

Yeah, really good and yeah, good to be here. 

Louise (01:10.446) 

All right, well, very excited about this. It’s our first two-hander. So, we are up for a really great discussion today. So let’s talk about your mental wellness challenge, Bally. What is it that you’re sharing with us today? Something that you’ve had to face, that you’ve worked your way through. 

Steven Ballinger (01:26.128) 

Yeah, so in 2017 I had quite a bad mental breakdown. My mental health wasn’t very, I wasn’t very well. My mental health wasn’t very good. At the time I was working in quite a stressful job, had a lot of responsibility and a lot of pressure on me actually. And at the same time, I was recently newly married. I was working with that person as well in the same organisation. It wasn’t going particularly well. And sort of all of that stuff culminated in quite a lot of stress, pressure, anxiety for me. And I wasn’t handling it particularly well. I wasn’t really sort of recognising it, if I’m honest. I didn’t really know the signs or the symptoms, and I was just sort of cracking on as normal. Where my emotions felt very flat. And as a result, I had a breakdown. 

And I spent a couple of months in hospital where I learned so much. I’ve got much better, of course, and I’m doing really well today. But I learned so much stuff about myself, about mental health, about the different tools and techniques that you can do and use to help to manage your mental health.  

Yeah, it was a difficult time. I remember talking to the doctor about it and he said, it’s a bit like, imagine having 100 kettles in your house, switching them all on at the same time, and inevitably that’s going to have quite a big impact on your circuit board, and that’s your brain. And if you don’t do something about it, that’s when things shut down and you ultimately have a breakdown. 

Louise (03:07.294) 

So what did a breakdown look like for you? 

Steven Ballinger (03:08.4) 

I guess I couldn’t really focus on anything. I couldn’t… Everything was going on around me, right? My life was still the same. There was still work pressures and life pressures and everything. But I really found it difficult to focus on conversations. I couldn’t watch TV. Like when I was watching, even something simple, not that I watch EastEnders, but something as simple as that, I couldn’t follow the storylines. And so I had to turn the TV off.  

I couldn’t hold conversations with people. I’d often try and sort of, you know, answer a couple of questions and then move away from it. I wasn’t, you know, getting through my work. I wasn’t, it just wasn’t really functioning properly, just sort of surviving. But I couldn’t recognise that at the time.  

It also, you know, how I was sort of soothing that I was going out too much. I was going out, drinking loads. I was going out to the pub all the time as a sort of way of, I didn’t recognise I was doing this, but it was a way of soothing ultimately what was a ton of stress and anxiety. I didn’t really know how to deal with, I didn’t really have the tools, I didn’t know what to do, know? And that was the most difficult thing for me was I didn’t know what to do and I didn’t know how to deal with it. 

Louise (04:35.264) 

So you’re talking a lot about not having recognised the signs and doing this kind of unconscious and quite unhealthy soothing with the drinking and the going out. Was it someone else who finally said to you, I think you need to go and get some help. 

 

Steven Ballinger (04:50.992) 

I missed a few days, I remember missing a few days of work, missing a few sort of important meetings, just couldn’t face it. And it was a lady who was the head of HR at the time, who’s a really lovely lady, Sally Rosso, she’s listening.  

She just took me for a walk in Regent’s Park one day and just said, you just can’t carry on. Like I can see, I can see the cracks, I can see that, you you’re not coping, you need to do something about this. 

And that afternoon I went to the doctor and the next day I was in hospital. That’s how quickly it happened. It was real sort of, you know, she’d obviously spotted that I was in a crisis. And I hadn’t spotted that. I mean, kind of knew it. Do know what I mean?  

If you’re not turning up to work a couple of days or, you know, you’re not really facing up to what’s happening in life, you sort of know that things aren’t right but you just try and crack on and plough on anyway. And it took somebody else to say, it’s not right. And to almost give me that permission, like I had, you know, I was worried I’m gonna lose my job, you know, or what people are think of me if I don’t come to work tomorrow.  

You know, I had all these sort of irrational thoughts going on. And it was only sort of that point where she was like, no more, you need to go and look after yourself, that was the start point for me, that then sort of everything else that came, came from that point. 

Louise (06:26.19) 

So I think firstly, thank you so much for being so open and just really normalising this conversation, because hearing you talk about it, I’m sure it was incredibly traumatic and difficult and all of those things, but the way that you’re talking about it is just, it’s so normal. It happens to so many people and it’s okay. So thank you for sharing in such a easy to connect with the story type way. 

Steven Ballinger (06:53.616) 

It’s taken a while to get to that point. The one thing I was worried about, the things I was worried about was what are people going to think of me? I’m meant to be this sort of senior leader, tough trading person, and all of a I’m going to go off sick because I can’t cope with the stress. What people are to think I’m useless. That was what I actually thought. And how little did I realise.  

What I know now is that actually people see strength in what I’ve said and like, do you know what? Showing a bit of vulnerability is okay and being honest about how you’re feeling is alright. But I didn’t know that at the time. 

Louise (07:36.514) 

Was that the kind of thing that you worked through when you were in hospital, to come to that understanding? 

 

Steven Ballinger (07:39.6) 

Yeah, massively. Hearing other people’s… A lot of what we did when I was in hospital was a lot of therapy. So individual therapy, group therapy, because there were other people in the same situation. You know, stress, managing stress and anxiety in their life in a different way. And, you know, what was interesting was hearing other people’s stories and going, you know what? It’s not just me. This is happening to lots of people. 

Don’t get me wrong, people manage it in different ways, and some people can cope with it and some people can’t, and that’s alright. So for me it’s like, I’ve lost all that, I wouldn’t call it bravado, but I’ve certainly pulled down the shutters to go, not the shutters but the shield if you like, to show that vulnerability and say it’s alright to not be alright. 

Louise (08:31.66) 

How was your reintroduction back into life after you came out of hospital? 

Steven Ballinger (08:37.296) 

It’s weird when you’re sort of shut away for a couple of months, you don’t really see many other people. It was good. I had a plan, you know, like don’t take on too much when you come out, make sure you sort of slowly reintegrate yourself back into your friends groups and work and stuff. But work were great. Like I went back and I actually did a, when I went back, it was in the new year.  

So it was sort of at the end of the year that happened. And I went back sort of first week of January and I’d agreed that I would do, there was a town hall of everybody in, like the team. And I did, I stood up at the town hall and talked about broadly my experience. And I got around the applause.  

It was very emotional and know, there’s people in, you know, and I had lots of people come up to me afterwards to say, thanks for sharing and how it had helped some people and how they’d connected with some others.  

Yeah, so that felt…. This is why I’m doing this and why I do other things like this, because I realised if I can tell my story and somebody can see, you know, one little bit that, do know what, that’s all right. He said, you know, he faced those things, I’m facing those things. It’s all right to tell someone or be open about it. If I can help someone, then that’s why I do it. 

Louise (09:57.155) 

I think that’s just incredible that you stood up and spoke to everyone so soon after coming out of hospital. That is amazing. So, before we get onto how you look after yourself now, I want to bring Annabel in. So, what’s interesting about Bally’s journey is that he didn’t know he was in it until someone said to him, you need to go get some help. So, what would you say to someone who maybe is experiencing similar symptoms, is feeling incredibly stressed, but might not know they need to go and get help. Is there anything you can say there to prompt some reflection, which would lead to someone maybe calling NABS? 

Annabel McCaffrey (10:37.269) 

Yes, and it’s an extremely interesting point and thanks so much for sharing that, Bally, because we do hear from people who haven’t noticed it themselves. It’s somebody that has said to them, you know, I’m noticing a change in you, and I think you need some help here, contact NABS.  

And I think it’s really important also for us to recognise that we don’t always see the signs in ourselves, but also sometimes we are incredibly good at masking it. And other people don’t notice those signs either. that can absolutely happen. It really is, I mean, it’s about that consistently checking in with yourself if you can, and just seeing how you’re feeling.  

If you are noticing physical symptoms, I mean, a bit like what Bally was saying, it’s like you knew that there was something not right, but you didn’t know what to do about it. And all the time you were talking about that, Bally, I was thinking, anyone who’s feeling like that, call the Advice Line, because you will get the experience of being able to tell your story, say how you’re feeling.  

And the advisors are so experienced in knowing what that might mean in reflecting it back to you and asking the right questions. But they will give you space and acknowledgement of how you are actually feeling, what you’re experiencing, like those conversations that you just couldn’t have. Not being able to watch the television, absolutely, or sort of follow storylines. It’s an absolute classic sign, actually, of utter stress. Your brain’s just closed down, yeah. 

Louise (12:22.402) 

Wow, I haven’t been able to follow a TV programme for at least three weeks. I think I need to take a long, hard look at myself. Now Annabel, you mentioned checking in with yourself there and Bally, I know this is an ongoing practice for you and that you’ve got some really easy, relatable ways that you can do that. So what are your recommendations for people? 

Steven Ballinger (12:42.996) 

For me, I check in with myself, I did it this morning, and what does that mean? You sort of just ask yourself, even out loud, and sometimes I do it out loud, and sometimes I just do it in my head, how do I feel today? And one of the things I learned was you’ve got to pick a feeling. So, if someone says how you’re feeling, or you ask yourself how you’re feeling, okay is not a feeling. Are you happy, you sad, are you anxious, are you scared, whatever the things are. 

And this morning I was feeling tired and a little bit anxious because I knew I was doing this podcast. So just checking in with myself meant, you know, okay, I’m just going to take it easy. I’m going to, you know, not going to rush into the office and pick up, you know, start cracking on with emails. I’m going to make myself breakfast. I’m going to have a cup of tea and just take, so it’s just thinking about how do I feel right now or today? And then making the appropriate action to manage that feeling. 

And I try and do that sort of two, three times a day, know, lunchtime before I get home, that sort of stuff, just to sort of remind myself, how am I feeling? 

Louise (13:52.398) 

Annabel, have you got anything to add to that? 

Annabel McCaffrey (13:55.35) 

I think that’s fantastic. I have never heard that point about it’s not, you know, saying I feel okay doesn’t mean anything. That is so helpful. Thank you. Seriously, I’m going to nick that because yes, you need to be able to say, how am I feeling? And as you say, I actually wondered if you were about to say you do a sort of on a scale of one to 10, how am I feeling? But I much prefer your way. So thank you. I’m going to share that with all my advisors. 

Steven Ballinger (14:21.41) 

No, I don’t do that, maybe I should. Yeah, maybe I should do that. Part of the reason I do that is when I was in hospital, part of the challenge that I had is I’d severed the connection between my feelings and my brain.  

So if I was feeling stressed out, in my brain I’m stressed out, but in my body I didn’t feel anything. So my feelings were flatlined, when if you’re feeling stressed or anxious, you might feel a bit of tightness in the chest. You might feel a little warm. I totally severed that connection because, you know, that come from childhood really, just, you know, grew up in a tough area. You know, that sort of suck it up, crack, get on with it son, that sort of thing.  

You know, I had, you know, grew up in London, you know, with family that would just sort of like crack on, get on with life. And I, that.. that’s what I did and that’s just who I was. And I think growing up with that, you sort of learn to mask your feelings or suppress your feelings really well.  

And I’ve certainly found that my friends are the same age group, that’s how we were brought up. And as part of the work that I’ve done in terms of being, everybody has mental health, whether you have good mental health or bad mental health.  

So to maintain good mental health, a lot of what I’ve done is really worked hard in trying to connect my how is my body feeling and to how is my brain feeling, and that check-in process helps me on a daily basis like how am I actually feeling today and what am I going to do about it. 

Louise (16:01.902) 

One thing I found really interesting is increasingly on this podcast, people have spoken about how they were raised or something they went through during childhood and how that then shows up for them, not just as an adult, but as an adult in the workplace.  

And I think it’s something that not just individuals going to work, but also managers need to take on board as well, almost that imprinting, and that actually it’s okay to face all of that head on and to find a safe space where you can explore it because maybe those beliefs that you had or that experience that you went through is now not serving you. Have you managed to now get past that, you think, Bally? 

Steven Ballinger (16:37.68) 

I have now, yeah, I think, I grew up in a world where it was like, know, my parents worked two jobs, you know, I was left alone a lot and I sort of had to build up that resilience as a child. And that, I think there was a sort of, what I learned from doing my therapy was, you know, there was this unwritten rule that we’re working really hard, which means you need to work really hard and do well for yourself.  

And that started at a very young age. And I think if I go through school, university and into a job, I spent 22 years at one company. Why was that? Because I just always wanted to be, get the next job, get to the next level and be the best and always try my hardest and did that. And that ultimately had took its toll on me where I never, I was always pushing hard to get to the next level. And that’s because that came from childhood.  

I think I still am ambitious, don’t get me wrong. And I still push and I still work incredibly hard. But I do it in a way where I’m also at the same time managing myself through that process. Whereas previously I wasn’t managing myself. I was just going hell for leather. Whereas now I’m still going hell for leather, but I’m doing it in a way where I’m going, am I all right about this? Am I okay? How do I feel? You know, have I taken some time out for myself? Am I doing exercise? I, you know, am I meeting up my friends? Am I doing other things? And so for me, yes, it has come through from childhood. 

But I now have the tools and the experience, I guess, of being able to manage that in a much more healthy way. 

Louise (18:19.042) 

This is a good time to give a shout out to our therapy provision, isn’t it Annabel? Because we can put you in touch with a therapist where you can explore this kind of stuff and learn what tools are going to work for you, right? 

Annabel McCaffrey (18:27.977) 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s that the sense that I had from what you were sort of talking about there, Bally, was that you by taking back control, you’ve given yourself many, many more choices about how you manage your energy. So ,you can still do what you want to do. You can still be that, you know, top ambitious person, but you’re doing it in a much, much healthier and balanced way. And absolutely the therapy provision. 

Annabel McCaffrey (18:56.149) 

You know, the feedback that we get from some from all the people that we refer to therapy is exactly that, that they get back that sense of control and understanding of what they need. And everyone’s different, aren’t they?  

But also, I think very particularly, and I loved what you were saying about noticing your physical responses to stress, and now you’re much more aware of them. That reconnection with your mind but inevitably you were protecting yourself previously. 

Steven Ballinger (19:31.258) 

Don’t get me wrong, I haven’t cracked it. I’m not some guru. Yeah, I’m not some like, know, I’ve nailed it. I know everything about it. I don’t. I still have therapy now. Like once a month I’ll check in with, you know, I found somebody who’s really good, who I get on with, and you know, he’s a really good guy. Once a month I’ll just drop in my little text. We’ll have a little 45-minute chat. 

Annabel McCaffrey (19:37.203) 

We’re all messy. 

Louise (19:39.8) 

Speak for yourselves. 

Annabel McCaffrey (19:45.119) 

Yeah, of course. Great. 

Steven Ballinger (20:00.69) 

And it is literally a chat and he’ll say like, you feeling? What’s going on in your life? And you sort of talk about some stuff and it sort of helps you to, or it helps me, sorry, it helps me to qualify some thinking, oh, why am I worried about that? It’s nonsense. Don’t worry, you’re worrying about that. Don’t worry about that. It’s not a real thing to worry about. And so it’s just that it’s somebody who’s not going to, not, not going to judge you, not going to give you any sort of advice to someone to listen and just qualify your thinking and feeling. 

So I find it really helpful and it’s certainly something that keeps me, you know, on. 

Annabel McCaffrey (20:32.533) 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Louise (20:36.718) 

You know what, even I’m feeling lighter listening to you talk about your experience of therapy. So it must be incredibly enriching and helpful for you, which is great to hear.  

And there is one hero to the story who we haven’t given a big up to yet. The HR director, Sally. So, it’s amazing, not just that she spotted what was going on and took you for a conversation, but I know Annabel will back me up on this one. She took you for a walk outside. 

Annabel McCaffrey (20:46.207) 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Steven Ballinger (20:52.835) 

That’s Sally. 

Annabel McCaffrey (21:04.341) 

Yes. 

Louise (21:07.436) 

She didn’t do it in the office. Annabel, talk us through why, if you are a manager and you spot it in someone else, you take them outside for a walk. What’s the benefits? 

Annabel McCaffrey (21:15.803) 

Yes, absolutely. Well, first of all, it creates a certain amount of privacy, obviously, away from all your colleagues and so on. But being outside, there’s a couple, I mean, you don’t have to be outside in nature.  

I know there’s a lot around that, but just being outside in the fresh air in the wider world, the bigger world, walking side-by-side has it is so much easier to talk to somebody walking side-by-side moving than sitting across a table – that creates a barrier and a sort of sense of, you up there and me down here sometimes. So, it really works. So yeah, absolutely big up to Sally because I’m not sure, know, particularly when everybody’s so busy, when managers and directors are so busy to take the time to do that, but gosh, it’s so, worthwhile. 

Louise (22:05.134) 

Sally, how was it for you taking that walk and having what we would call a fresh perspective, both physically and then mentally? 

Annabel McCaffrey (22:11.89) 

Nice. 

Steven Ballinger (22:13.169) 

I can still remember the conversation that we had. She said, look, I really think you need to take some time out. You need to go and get some health care, hospital and all that stuff. And I was just saying, yeah, but I can’t do that. I’ve got a meeting tomorrow at 12 o’clock. She’s just looking at me like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, seriously? And I think it was, yeah, you know, sort of got, I’ve got a bit of perspective. I didn’t feel like I was closed in, you know, like in a room or whatever. 

Louise (22:29.23) 

That’s classic burnout, isn’t it? 

Steven Ballinger (22:43.345) 

It felt we were in the park and it was a big open space, and you sort of maybe, I don’t know whether I did or not, but I sort of maybe get a bit of a wider perspective on life or things. It wasn’t like loads of stuff going through my head about that, but you sort of realise, yeah actually maybe I do need to do this.  

And yeah so there’s certainly, I’ve done stuff in the past where you know going out and chatting to people just on one-to-ones even, you tend to find people open up a bit more where they’re not really thinking about where they are, what they’re doing, just walking and talking. Everybody’s bit more open in that scenario. So, it’s something that I’d recommend that people do, certainly. 

Louise (23:31.169) 

It’s one of the reasons why we have our annual Walk and Talk event. So that’s an event that we do every summer. And we’ll take a nice two-hour, three-hour walk through London or wherever we decide to hold it. And people can just have a chat with the team or they can have a mentoring session as we walk along. And it is, as you say, Bally, that thing about just walking your mind somewhere else, you’re seeing fresh things, and then you’re more likely to open up.  

As a manager yourself and as someone who’s overseeing a lot of managers within your company, is there anything else that you would add in terms of a piece of practical advice to someone who’s got a team member, and that team member seems like they’re not quite in a good place and you’ve noticed it and you want to help them, what should you do? 

Steven Ballinger (24:14.737) 

You definitely have to have chat with them. I think it depends on what sort of relationship you have, right? I think, you know, we put a lot of… I think we just generally… the industry expects a lot from people managers. You know, ultimately you’re trying… managers in the industry are expected to sort of manage the work, but also manage the people. And I don’t know if we, if we give as an industry managers enough of the skills to be able to recognise how do I have a conversation about somebody’s mental health. 

So for me, I think it’s just if you do spot something as a manager, it’s just having a chat with somebody to ask them if they’re okay. them how they’re feeling. And if they say, I feel okay, say, well, how do you actually feel? Give me a feeling, you know, and maybe mirror it.  

The manager could say, I feel happy today, or I feel stressed today, and that might help the conversation. I think ultimately it’s pointing that person towards some more professional help.  

So clearly NABS and picking up the phone and having that conversation is a really good start. Often businesses have employee assistance programmes. There’s, I did some stuff with a business called I’m not okay, which is an industry business that I’m a companion for. So, I’d recommend picking the phone up or sending them an email. But yeah, I don’t think managers can be expected to solve the problems because they just don’t generally have the skills. 

And that’s not the thing against the managers. It’s a complex situation. And so I would just say that recommending to, you know, take some, get some help would be the first thing.  

I think sometimes often we just say to people, come down to the pub and have a pint. That’s not always the best thing, to be honest. Sort of just pointing someone to some more professional help would be my advice.  

So we did something when I was at my previous company, I was a mental health advocate on the senior leadership team. We set up a team of mental health first aiders called Kind Minds. And so that was quite helpful within the organisation, that managers could point people towards these people that had had an element of training. But not every company has that. I would say, know, NABS clearly is a brilliant business, a brilliant charity, that people should pick the phone up and talk to NABS. 

Talk to Annabel. 

Louise (26:41.966) 

Yeah, definitely. We want that signposting to NABS. We’re here to help. I look, this is why we invented our Managers’ Mindsets training programme. So we did a consultation in 2023 called All Ears, in which we found exactly what you were saying, Bally, that managers in our industry are expected to do the emotional support.  

And it’s what people want from their line managers. 40% of the people we spoke to would go to their line manager, first of all, if they had a problem that was impacting on their emotional health. But only 19% of the people we spoke to had had the training in order to have that conversation.  

So if you go and have a look at our Managers’ Mindsets programme, which I will link to in the show notes, you can find out about all the ways in which we can build those skills, coaching skills, leading inclusive teams. There’s a really interesting set of modules there that you can take to tool yourself up and to make sure your managers are told up as well.  

And about some really great advice there from Bally, anything that you would add for any managers listening, thinking I really need to help someone on my team, not quite sure what I’m going to do about it. 

 

Annabel McCaffrey (27:40.694) 

Yes, absolutely. And thanks, Louise, because I mean, one of the points that I want to sort of emphasise that Bally made is, as you say, we put so much on managers, hence us doing the Managers’ Mindsets programme. But even with that, and all part of that programme is to remind managers that it’s not within their remit to rescue people.  

And, you know, they may have a real pull, they may get on really well with that person, but boundaries are so important. And therefore, to signpost onto that and absolutely to the NABS Advice Line because, but also managers can call us and we would really encourage managers to do this.  

If you’ve got an individual that you know is struggling and you’re not quite sure, you know, can feel very anxious about having that first conversation. You know what the person’s about to say to you. So it’s absolutely fine to speak to our Advice Line. We welcome it and the team will talk you through just gentle ways of how you can start that conversation.  

We’ve also, as I say, got the Managers’ Mindset programme, but if that isn’t, you ready for you, you’re not ready for that yet, do that, noticing change in behaviour of your team members is so important. So if nothing else as managers, if you can notice their sort of baseline behaviour. And what’s always interesting is that we tend to imagine that people perhaps get lower energy if they’re not feeling too good. 

But it can happen the other way. I don’t know if this happens to you, Bally, but you can become almost hyper and somebody who’s really normally quite sort of quiet can get really quite fun, sort of more fun. And everybody’s going, hey, they’re, you know, they’re great, aren’t they? But actually this is a sign that something’s not quite right. And I love that. It’s not how are you really, okay. No, it’s how are you really, tell me how you feel, what that feeling is of that.  

Steven Ballinger (29:29.618) 

That’s what happened to me. I wasn’t low or down. I was like hyperactive, like, you know, spinning a million plates and buzzing around the office. And I was at that level of sort of hyperactivity going out, you know, working, being active all the time to try and sort of bury the fact that I’d have to sit and maybe sit with my feeling. And I didn’t, because I didn’t know it. I didn’t know what it was or how to deal with it. So I just sort of burn up all of my time. I was at that end of the scale, as opposed to sort of being very low and quiet. 

Louise (30:08.546) 

Well, we’re really glad that you’ve come through it and you’re sharing experiences now and not just that, but you’re also a huge advocate for NABS and as part of Astus, you’re a brilliant supporter, one of our fabulous donating companies. Now talk us through, why does Astus donate? 

 

Steven Ballinger (30:27.025) 

Well, that’s been around 20 plus years. And it works with all parts of the industry, both media owners, agencies, clients. And I think the founders of this business are very vocal about how they care about the staff and care about the mental health and wellbeing of staff. And I think that goes for the industry. And so I think they feel very connected to it, very connected to the industry.  

And they want to help in any way that they can. I think that donations, the donations to NABS and coming to NABS events is the way that we do that. But it also enables our people to connect to the industry at NABS events and talk about how people are feeling and mental health and just connect with people. I think, yeah, it’s very, the owners of this business are very supportive of people and the industry. And I think this is just one way of giving back. 

Louise (31:23.64) 

And it sounds like it’s a two-way relationship. So not only are you partnering with us to, I don’t know, buy a table at an event or to sponsor a prize, but in doing so, you raise awareness amongst your people that NABS are here for them. 

Steven Ballinger (31:35.214) 

100%. I mean, I just, I just before I came on here, I was telling some of the team that I was just off to do a podcast and they were like, that’s amazing. I really can’t wait to listen to it. We’ll put it on our, on our socials and all that sort of stuff.  

So I think, you know, the team, you know, look at somebody like me as a leader and say, you know, that’s, that’s a really brave thing to be doing. And we’re really supportive of that. So, you know, we, you know, I’ve come from a business where there was 70,000 people globally to a business where we’ve got, you know, 40-odd in the UK. 

So everybody’s very close and supportive of each other and that just feels really nice. 

Louise (32:11.994) 

Well, we’re really lucky to have your support and also a big hello to anyone in Bally’s team who is currently listening.  

Now, Annabel, we always tell people there would be no NABS without donations. That’s it. That’s the only way that we get our funds because we’re a charity. We’re funded by the kind organisations in our industry. And what I want to hear about from you is this year, where we’ve really focused on celebrating our donors with our Yay List campaign. What are some of the examples of work you’ve been able to do this year because people like Bally, like Astus, have donated. 

Annabel McCaffrey (32:43.157) 

Yeah, no, exactly that Louise, and I mean, broadly speaking, as you know, we have done so much every single day, you know, it’s making a difference to many, many people, whether it’s through the Advice Line, offering support around all the different areas, the team are incredibly experienced in supporting people, whether it’s our workshops and so on. But I did want to share a couple of very specific examples, particularly about, actually as it turns out, couple of two different men who were in their sort of mid-forties with layer upon layer. And I think this is what we hear with you, Bally, that it’s not just one thing that tips, tips us over often. It’s one thing and then another comes and then another comes. it’s almost like, you know, the analogy of the frog, the boiling, you know, boiling the frog. 

Yes, but when you’re in that cool water, it’s just getting hotter and hotter and you don’t necessarily notice. yeah, one person that we’ve helped very particularly, and we got incredible feedback from both of these people, but someone who was in their mid-40s, a freelance creative. we always, know, freelance is always a little bit more unstable, obviously financially, but massive impact from COVID, the family’s health was very, very impacted both all members of the family, some very seriously.  

And so, our person was having to support them whilst trying to keep the business going and it was almost impossible. And financially things got really, really tight. And then they were given notice on their home. So, you know, where they were actually just at the point where they were beginning to get back up there again. And this was straight back down that line of, God, how do we, how do we cope with this? And luckily someone else told them to contact NABS. 

We were able to help financially towards them getting their new rented home and their response was about how incredibly transformative our help was and they literally couldn’t have imagined… they daren’t imagine where they would have ended up without NABS’ support.  

Someone else again, somebody in their early 40s, a marketing executive who equally they had to find a new place to live after experiencing domestic abuse. And for them to find, it’s always to find that initial financial support for getting rented accommodation. you know, in both cases, council properties, both people were recommended to try and find somewhere private because you’re just not going to find what you need within the, unfortunately, council availability. 

But the response again from this person, and I have to say it’s not often that our team are moved to tears, but this particular response did. They said that they couldn’t put into words how much I helped mentor them and they just said four words, this place is perfect. 

Louise (36:02.338) 

That’s incredible. 

Annabel McCaffrey (36:04.039) 

Yeah, it moves me to tears even just saying it now, and I’ve been here long enough that it’s rare but yeah, it’s we know we’ve we’re very lucky in a way in the team because we get those immediate responses from people that’s extraordinary and day in day out of how much we’re helping people and that they were very specific examples but yeah every day we are making an enormous difference and therefore… the donors, you know, I want to pass that feelgood factor on if nothing else. You are making such a difference to every individual that we speak to through us. We’re your sort of portal of passing that on. 

Louise (36:50.19) 

So that’s a big thank you, Bally, and a big thank you, Astus. 

Steven Ballinger (36:52.177) 

It makes me feel very proud and you know, I’ll certainly, you know, the team from Astus, I’m sure we’ll be listening to this, I will make sure that, you know, that we, part of that I pass on those thanks from you guys to the team and the founders. I mean, it’s really important to us as a business too. 

Louise (37:14.06) 

Now, what’s your message to those people who may not have had the opportunity to be so generous? Perhaps they’re not donating yet. Perhaps they are giving, but maybe next year they could give a little more. What would you say to them? 

Steven Ballinger (37:28.891) 

Put your hands in your pockets. Look, we’re part of an industry that is an amazing industry and we’re all very lucky to be part of it, right? And I think, you know, people have built successful careers out of it, friendships, marriages, you know, all sorts of stuff have come out of the industry. And so if you are an owner of a company or you’re a leader of a company and you have access to budget and you can give, then do so because, you know, maybe one day you’ll be in a position where you need the support and the help and you’d be grateful for people that are donors so if you can please do. 

Louise (38:08.514) 

Well put. Obviously I will put a link in the show notes to the Yay List page, where you can find out more about getting on that list and also ways to donate and get involved too. There’s lots of ways you can get involved to help us to raise funds.  

Now, having spoken about a couple of ways in which we help people this year, it’s also important to stress that it doesn’t need to be at crisis point when someone comes to us for help and we speak to people about anything and everything. So with that in mind, Bally, as a manager, when do you think it’s best helpful to signpost someone to NABS at which point during that process? 

 

Steven Ballinger (38:45.285) 

As early as possible. If somebody’s struggling or they’re not sure how they feel or what is actually happening to them or what they should do, then straight away, right?  

I mean, I think, you know, what I learned from being in hospital, there’s a scale, right? One is at the scale you’re really healthy and happy. And then the other end of the scale is, you know, you’re at your absolute rock bottom. You don’t want to be getting anywhere near the bottom end of that scale, the rock bottom bit. So as much as you could keep in the middle or up to the side where you’re healthy, the early intervention is important.  

And that’s not, you know, it’s not saying that, you know, every time someone’s upset or has a difficult conversation, you should point them to NABS. It’s having that right judgment to say, things have not been quite right with this person or my friend or whatever it is for a little while now, and I want to try and lend a hand. So, yeah, it’s having the judgment, the right judgment at the right time, but as early as possible. 

Louise (39:43.522) 

I think that goes back to Annabel’s point about we want managers to call us too. So a manager could ring and say, well, someone seems stressed about X and together you can have a conversation about, well, a certain amount of stress in life is normal, but maybe this is going beyond that. 

Steven Ballinger (39:56.175) 

And I think the advice fpr the managers is like, you don’t have to fix it. You’re not a therapist. You’re not like, you’re not an expert. The manager’s job or a friend’s job, right, doesn’t have to be a manager, it could just be your friend. Your job is to just spot something’s not quite right and suggest that that person gets some help with it. And if they don’t know where to get help, then there’s an obvious answer, which is call NABS, right? So it’s not about solving the problem and going through it line by line and all that sort of stuff. It’s about just spotting that things aren’t quite right over a longer period of time and just pointing them in the right direction. You don’t have to solve. 

Annabel McCaffrey (40:37.065) 

Yeah, Bally, do you want to come and work at NABS? But thank you. That’s so perfect. Exactly that. In fact, it’s almost it’s really important that you don’t solve it, because there’s all sorts of reasons why that doesn’t always work because you can appear to be the sort of rescuer and then you didn’t quite get it right. Whatever. So just, yeah, signpost to the right place and look after yourself as a manager. You need to really look after your own wellbeing as well. 

Annabel McCaffrey (41:04.649) 

As we know, and so that’s about keeping that remit. Don’t say, you can call me anytime, because people will take you up on that and be calling you outside office hours or whatever. Don’t do it. 

Louise (41:15.362) 

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. My favourite. Now, how, Bally, does the advertising community lift you up? 

Annabel McCaffrey (41:17.385) 

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, yeah. 

Steven Ballinger (41:27.994) 

I’ve got lots of friends. Look, I’ve been in the industry a long time. I’ve got loads of friends in the industry. I get a lot of my energy from people, like just being in and around people and chatting to them. And so for me, it’s, you know, going out to events, going out to meetings or just being in an agency or in a media owner and just seeing people.  

For me, that’s the belonging to the industry is really important to me. It’s part, you know, I’ve been in it since the graduate. you know, and that’s 20-odd, 23 years later, I’m still here. for me, it’s a big part of my life. And I’ve got lots of friends in the industry. So, it does give me happiness and energy. It stresses me out sometimes. That’s normal. But yeah, for me, it’s really nice to have so many friends and colleagues across the industry. 

Louise (42:22.274) 

We’ve got to the end of this conversation, which is quite remarkable. I thoroughly enjoyed speaking with both of you. So, our last question for you, Bally, is what is one thing you’ve learned about how to support yourself? 

Steven Ballinger (42:37.97) 

Um, I’m going to say two things actually. I think one is to check in with yourself. You know, I talked about that earlier. Just, just, you know, how do I feel today? And okay, not the answer is, you know, happy, stressed. What is it? And then what do I do about that? Um, and then I think just give yourself some time. You know, we, we rush around in our lives a hundred miles an hour all the time. Um, just make sure you make time for yourself to just, you know, decompress and have a walk or read a book or do something specifically for yourself. 

Louise (43:15.554) 

Annabel, you can help your team along with that by doing what you do that I really like, which is no demands on me hour, can you talk us through that? 

 

Annabel McCaffrey (43:22.549) 

There you go. Yes. So that to your point, Bally, about giving yourself some time. And it doesn’t have to be trying to find sort of a whole hour, but just five, 10, 15 minutes, which I offer to each of my team. 

You know, in their day, in their week, a micro moment of literally no demands on you, whatever that might mean to you, whether that does mean going out of your home or going for a walk, but just to put aside any, anybody pulling on your time and pulling on your mind and pulling on your energy and just, as we say, breathe, but really sort of consciously breathing and enjoying the moment. 

Louise (44:12.558) 

Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed this particular chat. So, thank you both of you. Thank you so much, Bally, both for being so open about the challenge that you’ve been through and also for being such a fantastic advocate for mental wellness and supporter of NABS and flying the flag for us. And Annabel, thank you so much for your insight and for your wisdom today. Thank you both very much. 

Steven Ballinger (44:34.002) 

Thank you.