EP47: When a team loses a colleague: navigating grief at work
Kathryn Jacob opens up about bereavement, leadership and the pressure to appear perfect at work.
When a team loses a colleague: navigating grief at work – with Kathryn Jacobs
Kathryn Jacob OBE is CEO of Pearl & Dean and one of adland’s most influential leaders. A committed NABS supporter and DEI advocate, Kathryn opens up about bereavement, leadership and the pressure to appear perfect at work.
Kathryn and her team are currently processing the sad and sudden lost of a much-loved team member. In this vulnerable and supportive chat, Kathryn talks about supporting herself and others through this most difficult of times, and how they’ve called upon the NABS team to offer professional support.
As with life, there’s light and shade throughout this engaging chat, with Kathryn also getting real about smashing perfectionism at work, and why the industry needs to support NABS – including her favourite NABS memories.
Key takeaways:
- Grief is personal and non-linear, so there is no single right way to support somebody through it.
- Leaders build trust when they acknowledge mistakes and let go of the expectation of perfection.
- Great teams share responsibility and support one another when somebody needs help.
Show notes:
Louise Scodie (00:27)
This week, my guest is Kathryn Jacob OBE, CEO of Pearl&Dean. Kathryn is one of the biggest names in the business, having worked across the industry before her current role as CEO of Pearl & Dean, where she focuses on film and cinema. Building on the reputation of Pearl&Dean, her team have grown their activities outside of the usual venues into pop up cinema, cinemas on luxurious ships, film partnerships, and product placement.
Kathryn is also the co-author of three books: The Glass Wall with Sue Unerman, Belonging with Sue Unerman and Mark Edwards, and A Year of Creativity with Sue Unerman. Book four is out in the autumn. In fact, it’s out today. Kathryn sits on the Council of Advertising Association, is chair of HOME Manchester, an iconic arts venue, sits on the development board of RADA, and is president of the worldwide cinema sales body, SAWA.
Is that how you say it, SAWA? Amazing.
Kathryn Jacob (01:23)
That is exactly how you say it.
Louise Scodie (01:26)
Okay, well thank you for the reassurance over the acronym and welcome to the NABS podcast. How are you doing today?
Kathryn Jacob (01:33)
I am very well. I’m with NABS. It doesn’t get better than that, does it, being with the people who look after you.
Louise Scodie (01:38)
That’s what we like to hear. And you’re as we will come on to in our discussion, you’re such a fabulous supporter of NABS. So the mutual appreciation definitely goes both ways. And with your busy schedule, we’re really appreciative of the fact that you’ve carved some time out to talk to us. we’ll be talking about some quite challenging things today as well as some quite uplifting things. So I’m really looking forward to it. I must just ask you, what did you get the OBE for? Services to cinema?
Kathryn Jacob (02:06)
No, services to diversity and equality.
Louise Scodie (02:09)
Cool. Was that as a result of writing the books?
Kathryn Jacob (02:11)
No, happened before the books. I did some work with the fabulous Cilla Snowball and the Ad Association and we did some work with the IPA. so that representation and advertising, so different types of people, was built into that initial training that the IPA did. And we did some research, so we did Pretty as a Picture about airbrushing and teenagers. We did we did the full picture, which is about diversity, you know, representation of ethnicity and then we did one about boys and the portrayal of boys and young men in advertising as well.
Louise Scodie (02:51)
Very good. Fascinating stuff and lots of that plays into the whole mental wellness landscape as well, because you need to be able to be your whole self when you come to work. And if you’re celebrated for who you are as part of recognising diversity, then that can only make you feel better. now let’s kick off by talking about a mental wellness challenge that you’ve had to face. Now yours is really quite recent and ongoing really, and how you’re getting through it and supporting yourself and other people.
Kathryn Jacob (03:23)
Yeah, so our biggest challenge this year has been the unexpected loss of a colleague. and coming into work on a Monday morning, it was a normal Monday. And then we had a phone call from the police saying that our colleague had died in unexpected circumstances. Not criminal circumstances, but had just died unexpectedly.
And to get you know, your team together on a Monday morning and the first thing that you say to them, well, eleven thirty on a Monday morning is, we’ve lost this person, is I think one of the toughest things I’ve ever done. You’re dealing with how you feel about that loss. You’re trying to process how other people are dealing with the loss. You don’t have the answers because we didn’t know what had happened.
And so you’re trying to give reassurance to people at a time when they’re in shock and grief and disbelief. And it was really difficult to kind of and people process grief in a different way. You know, if you’re some people just go into shutdown, right? I’m gonna deal with that later.
Other people kind of want to talk about it. Some people want to talk. I mean, it was just really tough. So, you know, we got together and actually the first people that we emailed was well, I mean, within that day was NABS. And we just said, thishas happened. We don’t… no one has a policy for this, you know, and I don’t mean to be unempathetic, but if you know someone’s ill there’s a process of you know, assimilation, isn’t there?
Louise Scodie (05:21)
No. Well tthere is anticipatory grief. So for example, as you say if someone’s ill, if you have a relative who has a serious disease and you know that unfortunately the prognosis is only going one way, anticipatory grief can kick in, which doesn’t lessen the grief when the person eventually passes away, but at least you know it’s coming.
Kathryn Jacob (05:41)
Yeah. And so we gave people space to be together or to go home or to go for a walk or be whatever. And then we did a follow up using NABS’ brilliant services, where we had a group session where people could talk about how they feel and then one-to-one sessions were for people who didn’t want to talk about their feelings and emotions that they could just talk to somebody who understood and could help support them.
And we did four of those sessions and then kind of just kept saying to people, if this, you know, it may be that this doesn’t feel real now and it’ll happen to you. and I wrote to everybody individually as well and said there is how you deal with grief is deeply personal. And how you process it and what you want to do is do you want to talk about that person, talk about your memories, or do you want to process it in your own mind and then have a talk? And you can’t legislate for that. You’ve got to let people do it in the way that works for them while supporting them.
And then of course the other thing as well is I’m trying to process my grief. Sorry. While to support my lovely team. And I found it really hard to sleep for like that whole week. Because I kept thinking, did we do this right? Did we do that right? You know, and the training was, you know, we found it on the Monday. It was a bank holiday the following weekend. The counselling wasn’t happening until the Tuesday. And I think literally from the Monday to the Friday, I woke up in the middle of the night at half past two going we’re not doing enough. What more can we do? How can and it and it’s just that boundary thing, isn’t it? Which is I didn’t want to feel like I was intruding.
Louise Scodie (07:46)
Yeah.
Kathryn Jacob (07:47)
And but I didn’t want people to think that they were alone. And it yeah, and it’s you know, Pearl&Dean is made up of a bunch of fabulous, talented people, but they are all different and they are all individuals.
And some of them just want you to hug…
Louise Scodie (08:03)
Yeah.
Kathryn Jacob (08:04)
And some of them want you to kind of just leave alone for a bit and then come and knock on your door and go, can have a cup of tea and a bit of a chat. And that’s hard. And it doesn’t stop, you know, his birthday. Sorry. His birthday, our Christmas party. It’s the space that’s there.
Where he was.
Louise Scodie (08:29)
I’m so sorry. This is so hard. And it’s so refreshing to hear a leader at your level speak so openly and in such a vulnerable way about your own feelings around what’s happened as well as your teams. So thank you so much for kind of trusting us with that. I think it’s really going to help because grief and bereavement is just something we don’t like talking about. But we all have to deal with it.
And there’s something very particular about dealing with it within the workplace. And I wonder whether the support and the care that you are giving to everyone and to the process of support is any different to say if you’ve had a friend who’s lost a relative or if you’ve had loss in your own family. Do you think there’s anything else that needs consideration for grief support within a workplace setting?
Kathryn Jacob (09:20)
I think you’ve got to get professionals to help you because particularly you’re in it. I mean you might try and give yourself some distance but you are in it, and you don’t know how you’re gonna feel and you know and I probably wasn’t at my you know, I probably wasn’t at my best that week ’cause I wasn’t sleeping, you know. But I felt I had to shout and the other… Yeah, I think that you’ve just got to get professionals in. And also the other thing is don’t go, well you’ve had two weeks now. That’s it. Move on. You know. Everything’s moved on. It hasn’t. It won’t. It’s a bit like scar tissue. You know. It’s you know, you have the cut and then it heals a bit and then it’s very red and sore and then you notice it, but it’s still there.
Louise Scodie (10:17)
Yeah.
Kathryn Jacob (10:18)
You know, and that’s what it is. It’s collective scar tissue and you have to recognise that is there. and for some people the healing process is shorter or the seeming healing process is shorter. And for some people it carries on. And there are different triggers for different people. And it might for some people, it might not be the Christmas party, it might not be, you know, it might not be the next… youknow, all team celebration we have where, you know, it’s a lot of things. It’s the music that he liked coming on the you know, i in something and it triggers it. Yeah. And it is that thing about you’ve just got to have the thing I’ve learnt is you’ve got to give the space for it to be lots of things and anything.
Louise Scodie (11:07)
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s not linear and it may never end, and it can show up in the most surprising of ways.
Kathryn Jacob (11:16)
Yeah. But there’s a great Andrew Garfield quote, ’cause he lost his mum and he always says, When I cry, all I’m doing is expressing the love I never got to share with her. Sorry, the love I never got to share with her. Yeah. And I think that is such a great way of dealing with it because you know, crying is verboten, you know, in the it’s like a thing, isn’t it? You know, you know.
If you feel very emotional, don’t cry in a meeting because A, people don’t know how to deal with it and B, you know, depending on if in some organisations it’s a source of shame. Yeah. But actually crying is completely normal. It’s just what happens, you know, and yeah.
Louise Scodie (12:01)
Absolutely. Being able to hold space for that is really brave I think and does go against a lot of conventional wisdom.
Kathryn Jacob (12:09)
We’re taught that we have to be, you know, fantastic and warrior-like and amazing and look at our best the whole time and be at our best the whole time and performing and ta-da. And that dissonance between that we create with people of what the image that you’re projecting and your reality is where we put people in, we create problems for people because we’re not perfect all the time. Of course we’re not.
Louise Scodie (12:38)
Exactly.
Kathryn Jacob (12:38)
Ever. It well, obviously apart from you, and everyone at NABS. but we’re not perfect all the time. And part of the joy of human connection is, think I’ve used this analogy before. Great teams are like a peloton. You know, someone always goes to the front and takes the wind for a bit. If one person’s at the front all the time, being the person who takes the wind, you’re not gonna get anywhere. What you gotta do is have a game where you swap in and out, you know.
And it’s like tag wrestling. I’m a bit tired, Louise, it’s your turn to get in the ring. Come on, get in. I know you’re trained, I know you can do it. There’ll be someone else. And that’s what great teams are.
Louise Scodie (13:20)
That’s really interesting. I think relationships are like that as well. Yeah. And raising kids too, if one of you’s feeling a bit less than the other one needs to step in, whether they always do is a different story. But that’s for another podcast.
Kathryn Jacob (13:34)
Whole different.
Louise Scodie (13:36)
I would suggest that respecting someone’s lived experience of grief is really key, both while they’re going through the real crux of it and then in the aftermath. And saying that from my own lived experience of when I lost my dad, what drove me absolutely nuts was the platitudes.
Like you know, two weeks after the funeral, time’s a great healer. No thank you. So I’m wondering what your lived experience of going through grief in the workplace has revealed for you. I mean, you’ve already told us so much, but wondering if there’s anything else that came across as a revelation.
Kathryn Jacob (14:08)
Just I think the comfort that people can give each other. Even just sitting there holding someone’s hand and not talking. and I you know, and to your point about the platitudes is that everybody wants there’s two reactions, aren’t there? There’s the platitudes and then there’s the – particularly if it’s a personal grief, as opposed to a shared grief which ours is, which is is people avoid you. Yeah. Like no one wants to talk to you about it because they don’t know what to say. Actually all you need to go up and say is, I’m here if you need me. And that and that’s it. And just check in and do the you know, it is the thing which is if you lose a parent, it’s Christmas, their birthday, Father’s Day, Mother’s Day.
Your first birthday without getting a stupid card, you know. Yeah. From your parent, you know. All of those things where you think it’s the interesting thing is the tight you know, sometimes it’s the tiny things. So, you know, I think the just going up and hugging someone, if yeah, well, obviously saying, Do you mind if I give you a hug? But I’m just here. ‘Cause sometimes you it feels when you’re experiencing it feels so lonely. Yeah. You know, if it’s yeah. And also recognising as well that people might feel angry.
Louise Scodie (15:37)
Absolutely.
Kathryn Jacob (15:39)
You know, and dealing with that as well. And not no platitudes and no and no ghosting. And any human response in a space there is just someone showing that they care about you and where you are. Yeah.
Louise Scodie (16:01)
You will always remember the kindnesses that have been shown to you. I found. Someone made me some tahini biscuits when my dad passed away. And I will never forget those biscuits. Yeah. You know, and it’s something as simple as that. Just those little kindnesses. Yeah, I completely agree.
You said that NABS helped, which is brilliant. I’m really pleased we could help. What was your kind of key takeaway from anything that we shared or gave in terms of support for the team?
Kathryn Jacob (16:31)
Just that someone was there who kind of knew what they were doing. It was like it was permission to kind of not permission’s the wrong word. Acceptance. Yeah.
The thing of you knew that people wanted to and it sounds really weird, they wanted to look after us and help us heal. And it was done so beautifully and in such a very NABSy way, you know, kind, caring, utterly professional, but not in a clinical way. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
It wasn’t like grief counselling was delivered to us. You know how people go, we’re delivering. Yeah. That makes it sound like you turn up and irrespective of what’s going on, you’re gonna say you’re set bit, give people five minutes and then that’s it. Thanks so much, Louise, your time’s up. There was space. It was space and comfort and wisdom.
Louise Scodie (17:34)
Amazing. I’m so glad we supported you though. Now, I would say if you’re listening and you’re going through grief or bereavement yourself, we’ve got some resources on the website, so we’ll put them in the show notes. and then we also do run throughout the year workshops and coaching sessions around grief as well, where as Kathryn was just saying, you can also experience that sense of someone holding some space for you and being able to take some time out and process and talk about whatever’s going on for you or even just to come along and listen if that’s going to work too.
You should also give our Advice Line a call. All of the support team are fantastic. One of them in particular is a trained bereavement counsellor. So we are here for you in all of those different ways. And again, that will go in the show notes. now you mentioned before about this expectation to be fabulous and brilliant and perfect all the time.
And when we spoke before, you were talking about the pressure to be on all the time. Like we work in this shiny industry and it’s kind of all stars and spangles and look at me, I’m fantastic. And you have a really interesting take on this particular aspect of our working world and how this impacts on mental wellness. So tell us a bit more about that.
Kathryn Jacob (18:44)
Because I just think it’s just impossible to be shiny and perfect the whole time. We are human. And the expectation that you’re gonna turn up looking like you’ve been in, you know, hair and makeup for two days and it’s an Oscar performance and da-da-da is failing to recognise the reality of human life and of humanity and the way that we live s live our lives.
And there’s this kind of notion that not to be like that is shaming because you’re not adequate and you’re not doing that. And I think that creates massive issues for people. And, you know, I have friends, you know, who are actors. And trust me, quite a lot of them don’t look anything like they do when you see them doing press appearances.
You know, there’s a you know, when they do those before and afterwards. After you know, there are people who can quite safely travel on the London tube who are quite well-known and no-one would recognise them because they don’t look like their persona. And I think that thing about the gap between who you are and your persona creates a minefield for people of and also it’s bloody tiring.
You know, we turn up every day being this person. And it’s just like, just turn up and try your best. Okay? That’s all I want you to do. Turn up and try your best. Be on time. Know your lines. Ta da. But I do not expect perfection because it’s unrealistic. All human beings are flawed. We’re flawed in our own ways. But the shininess and the you know my presentation must be perfect.
People go back and you put a slide up and you didn’t say the first thing completely the same way that you did in the really good rehearsal. You won’t remember the fact that the seven other slides that you did were absolutely banging and people were literally crawling out of their chairs going, Can I buy it now? I love you. Yeah. All we’ll do as humans is go. I couldn’t say “premiumisation”.
Kathryn Jacob (21:08)
Do you know I said it I said it brilliantly in rehearsal and and that’s the only thing you’ll think about, because we just want people to be shiny and fabulous. We are not all shiny and fabulous. I’m not shiny and fabulous all the time. Just not. This just happens. Yeah.
Louise Scodie (21:29)
So your team are really lucky, because they know that you think that and that it’s okay for them to take risks and fail and make mistakes at work. But what would you say to someone who isn’t working in such a supportive atmosphere? And indeed what advice would you give to a team leader? What can they do to create that psychological safety where people don’t have to be shiny all the time?
Kathryn Jacob (21:51)
Admit that you’ve cocked up. Just admit that you made a mistake. You know, when you leave that, if you’re the person who couldn’t say premiumization, when you get in the you know, when you walk into the tube on the way back after your meeting, go, did anybody else know I couldn’t say premiumization? Literally. What’s going on there? I said it perfectly before. Da. Normalise your humanity with people. And also give I mean obviously don’t you know, don’t go, this is a life changing thing and please feel free to go and mess it up. But give people the space to go, I’m quite unsure about that. Could you just, you know, if, I mean I work with people I’ve worked with for a long time. Yeah. And that tag system, which is if you get to a point where you’ve got everything in your head and it’s all in here, but there’s a jam here.
Mike or Claire or Jamie or someone will turn up and go, I think what Kathryn’s, you know, Kathryn’s trying to say, or can I just jump in here and say Louise is really good on this, you know, and she’s so brilliant at it that sometimes she forgets how brilliant she is. Let me just say she’ll really be able to deliver this project because she brings the whole thing back to front. And people buy teams, people buy people who don’t suddenly go, if there’s a mess up, people go,
Louise Scodie (23:13)
Right.
Kathryn Jacob (23:13)
It was her fault. Right. I was really good, but it was her fault and she didn’t do the thing. And don’t we’re a really great team. People buy teams, you know, people buy a bunch of people that think, I’m gonna enjoy being with them because I know I’ll it went it’s not a yeah. So I think it’s just that thing. And if you’re a leader expecting perfection the whole time, that puts pressure on you to be perfect.
Louise Scodie (23:36)
Yeah.
Kathryn Jacob (23:37)
And so much of this is led from a projection of perfection, you know, and an image that actually isn’t true. And so we need to bring our authentic selves to work, as human as they are in all their brilliance and sometimes some of their cock-ups.
Louise Scodie (24:00)
I completely hear that. Do you think where’s the point where you need to dial that in? Because if you really bring 100% to work, is that a good idea or not? Just putting that out there.
Kathryn Jacob (24:11)
I think it depends on the 100% you’re bringing.
Louise Scodie (24:14)
Right. I mean obviously my 100% is amazing. No, it really isn’t. My 100% is like you don’t want to see it. Yeah.
Kathryn Jacob (24:21)
But you know, it is that thing which is if someone’s under a huge amount of time pressure and is trying to get a presentation out and the video isn’t loading properly, or the video is loading but the sound isn’t loading, or there’s some kind of disconnect, they do not need you sitting next to them for 25 minutes talking about the fact that your flat mate is really annoying you at the moment. And yeah. It’s just pick your moment. But you know, I don’t need to know that in that moment.
Louise Scodie (24:57)
Time and a place.
Kathryn Jacob (24:58)
There is a time and a place, yeah.
Louise Scodie (25:00)
Yeah. I think that’s really good advice. Yeah. I’ll remember that next time we’re having a tech snafu.
Kathryn Jacob (25:07)
Well that’ll normally be my fault so ’cause you know, tech and I do not get on.
Louise Scodie (25:12)
Well have to say I would definitely buy your team based on you if I had the money, which I don’t. Now, Pearl&Dean are the most fabulous supporters of NABS and you are such a fabulous ambassador for us.
As you know, Kathryn, and as we’ve been telling the whole industry, we’re currently putting together this year’s NABS Yay List. Which is the industry list to be on. We celebrate the amazing fundraisers and supporters who give so much to NABS and help us keep going and help us do that vital work to support the industry’s mental wellness. So as someone who’s just so brilliant in supporting, you donate, you attend our events, you do so much for us. Firstly, thank you, because without that it would be a very difficult place for us.
What motivates you and what motivates the Pearl & Dean team to keep showing up, keep donating, keep getting involved with NABS events?
Kathryn Jacob (26:04)
Because Pearl&Dean think NABS is like the oxygen of our industry. It gives you a lot of things. If you’re in this industry and you it enables you to make connections, be it going to a workshop or doing some training or, you know, connections outside of your bubble.
Quite a lot of us live in little bubbles, work, bubble, home bubble. What this does is it gives you a network. It gives you the ability to access so much of our fabulous industry from people who work in cinema or they work on a tech platform or they work in an or they work in an agency. It’s that permission to enjoy the companionship and the support of our business. NABS’ Walk and Talk gives you the opportunity to be with someone who’s a mentor, who if you don’t work on their business or you’ve never met them before, you can go and have a little you know, doing that conversation where you’re looking forward, you know, we can always have those really embarrassing conversations because you’re not establishing eye contact. Always good. You know, you can share something with them or seek some advice from them. The grief I mean, it’s just that whole thing of, it’s the fabric that knits us together and keeps us whole.
Louise Scodie (27:20)
That is wonderful to hear.
Kathryn Jacob (27:20)
And yeah. And also everyone who works there is just lovely… it’s a proper human org, human focused organisation, run by proper humans who really care and who want you to have a really brilliant career.
Louise Scodie (27:43)
And you know what, that as someone who’s worked for now for nearly eight years now, which is incredible to think about really, that’s infused in how we work with each other as well. So I think because we’ve got that foundation of we care about each other as a team, we show up and we are messy and imperfect and we talk about it and we have a laugh and we care for each other, it then kind of empowers us even more to be like that when we’re working with the rest of the industry.
So I’m glad that’s coming through.
Kathryn Jacob (28:11)
Yes. And it does.
Louise Scodie (28:13)
What do you think giving to NABS demonstrates then to your team at Pearl&Dean?
Kathryn Jacob (28:18)
That we’re committed to their futures and the futures of the future of our industry and the wellbeing and longevity of our industry. I mean, we’re going through a period of absolutely phenomenal change. And, you know, someone I was at a meeting this morning and someone used the analogy, which is what’s happening with the industry at the moment is we’re being asked to change a tyre while the car’s still driving along.
So it’s like, we want you to change the entire way you’re working and adapt to all of these things. But we still want you to carry on doing the job that you’re doing at the moment. And do it, you know, like really well and don’t disappoint anybody. And it is, you know, and that’s quite that’s hard for humans to cope with because there’s no space and there’s no and yeah. And I think NABS enables us to go, yeah, we’ve got this. Someone’s got your back.
You can phone up and go, you know, what do I do about this? This is how I’m feeling.
And someone lovely at the end of the phone, or you can just look something up and go, this is happening to me. Should this be happening to me? What’s happening there? What’s that all about? I don’t understand. It’s just that bang, you know. So that ability that NABS has to kind of give you cohesion and momentum and care, I think, is absolutely crucial.
Louise Scodie (29:39)
And we are that little bit of space that you’ve mentioned is so difficult to find that you can send us an email and say help or you can take five minutes out, even if it’s when you get home late at night, ’cause our website’s always there with resources that you can look at.
Kathryn Jacob (29:52)
And you can listen to a podcast of someone who’s been through a thing and you don’t think you’re the only person who’s going through that situation. That’s the other thing as well.
Louise Scodie (30:02)
Absolutely. And this is one of the main reasons why we do the podcast. So Producer Lewis, you can’t see this, but Producer Lewis is now giving that a big heart on the screen. So thank you. We’ll be using that as a testimonial for our podcast. Thank you very much, Kathryn. Now, incredibly given how much NABS does for the industry, there are some people who still don’t support us.
Kathryn Jacob (30:22)
What’s wrong with them? Right. Give me their addresses and I’ll be going round with a firm word. And then if they’re very good and they give a lot of money, we’ll give them a thank you and I can make some tahini biscuits.
Louise Scodie (30:33)
100% tahini biscuits for all the new donors and supporters. Why do they need to do it this year? Why do they need to get on the Yay List this year as a fundraiser or a corporate supporter?
Kathryn Jacob (30:45)
Because we’re going through this phenomenal pace of change. And if you don’t look after your people and the industry that we work in and the sector we work in.
What’s gonna happen? Cause we need people. You know, although, you know, AI can do a bunch of stuff, that human connection that advertising and comms are about. People speaking to people or communicating with people authentically is absolutely crucial to client success, business success. And only your people can deliver that. And talent is the untapped potential that we have. You know, it’s a no-brainer.
Louise Scodie (31:23)
You said it, Kathryn. So if you’re not currently supporting or donating, go to the Yay List page. We will put that in the show notes and you can find out how you can help mental wellness across our industry and support that talent that really is the linchpin of everything our industry needs. Now, what is your favourite ever NABS memory? You’ve been involved with us for a long time, so I’m sure there’s quite a few to choose from.
Kathryn Jacob (31:47)
My lord. I think seeing Simon Daglish from ITV wearing a drag queen kind of cape up on stage is up there. Some of my favourite memories are being at Stranger Than Summer and just having an absolute whale of a time.
Laughing so much, going home later than you plan to go home, because you’re just in the room with just brilliant people and making connections. I think that’s my you know, that’s my but also my favourite NABS memory is what they did for us this year.
Louise Scodie (32:28)
And that just shows the absolute range of what we can do and how we can engage with the industry. We’re there for the absolute toughest times and we are there for when you want to come and party at the party of the year, Stranger Than Summer.
Kathryn Jacob (32:40)
But it’s all those bits in between as well. And everything in between. It’s not an either or. It’s an all-encompassing thing. You know, that’s the great thing about it.
Louise Scodie (32:53)
How does the adland community lift you up?
Kathryn Jacob (32:56)
Just by letting me have nice people to work with and work alongside. I think that’s it. Yeah, just nice just really great human people who really care about what they do and care and you know, our world has our sector has the capability of changing human behaviour, you know, if you look at you know, some of the things that we’ve achieved in terms of…. if I look at, for example, in my working life, the portrayal of mothers completely changed. Mothers, young women, older women, you know, that capability that we have as a sector through our portrayal, because we’re more prevalent in people’s lives than government on a daily basis.
You know, the capability we’ve got to drive change is huge. and we should bear that responsibly. but you know that just working with brilliant people who give a monkeys, you know. Yeah. Who’ll put their hand out to help you if you need them.
I think that’s it.
Louise Scodie (34:07)
Yeah. We’re very much a community, aren’t we?
Kathryn Jacob (34:11)
Which is why you should donate because then you get even further into the community and make new friends.
Louise Scodie (34:17)
Exactly. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Kathryn Jacob (34:19)
Thank you.
Louise Scodie (34:20)
What’s one thing you’ve learned about how to support yourself?
Kathryn Jacob (34:24)
Go for a walk.
Louise Scodie (34:26)
My goodness, yes, that’s the best. Tell us about your walk.
Kathryn Jacob (34:31)
So the whole thing is we are trained because we’re shiny and perfect and lovely that the minute we leave a meeting we must look at our telephones and then immediately call someone back to fill the space between being at your meeting and being back at the office or going to your next meeting. You do not need to do that.
A on the basisof the fact that if you’re in central London, you’ll probably have a tuk-tuk going past playing Pink Pony Club and no one will be able to hear what you say. But also just give yourself the spac to absorb what you’ve just done, sit with it, get yourself ready for the next thing.
And also it gets your steps up, which means and that’s good for your that’s good for your health. So that whole thing about a walk, for me if I’m feeling you know, if I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed, I’ll just go for a bit of a walk. If I’m thinking I’d it’s not and sitting in, you know, Pearl&Dean Towers, tussling it with my head, if I go outside, there’s something else to look at.
I can always walk up the road to the Tate and have look at a picture and then feel I’ve done something kind of cultural and then walk back again. But that whole thing about going for a walk. And I know there’s a big thing about the 5 a.m. club and everyone gets up and they’re doing bloody iron man. No woman who’s got school-aged children is able to get up at 5am unless they’ve got 14,000 members of staff to get their children up and remember where they left their bloody lunchbox, which is probably in someone else’s house and no one’s noticed.
No one can get up at five and do an hour and a half workout and then do yoga. We’re not all bloody Mark Wahlberg getting up at 3.45 and doing affirmations. Go for a walk.
Louise Scodie (36:12)
It really is the best thing that you can do for your head. And every time I do a NABS podcast, I will go for a walk afterwards, particularly because we’ll invariably discuss some deep and challenging material. So as you say, absorb and process and clear myself of the next thing.
Kathryn Jacob (36:31)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Louise Scodie (36:34)
All right, Kathryn says go for a walk. So we’ve had a really good, deep chat. We’ve talked about some difficult but, you know, part of life type stuff. We’ve learned a lot. We’ve learned why you should absolutely donate to NABS. Now you need to go for a walk and let all of that sink into your head.
Kathryn Jacob (36:50)
We will allow you while you go for a walk to look at the Yay List.
Louise Scodie (36:54)
Yes.
Kathryn Jacob (36:54)
While you’re walking along. Yeah. Absolutely. Or maybe stop and go for a coffee or a cup of tea or a herbal tea or anything else. While you’re waiting for that, while you’re sitting there, during you know, is the break in your walk, go to the Yay List.
Louise Scodie (37:07)
100%. Kathryn, you have been, as ever, a brilliant advocate for NABS and so authentic, to use one of the words that we’ve used in our conversation today, but also really opening up about grief while it’s still going on for you in the eye of the storm is really brave. So thank you so much for doing that. we will pop links to everything you need to know in the show notes and you can find Kathryn on LinkedIn and running about town avoiding tuk-tuks.
Kathryn, you’ve been absolutely incredible. Thank you so much.
Kathryn Jacob (37:39)
Thank you for letting me come on your lovely podcast.
Louise Scodie (37:41)
Thanks very much.
