Episode 2: Seeing the other side of a woman’s success

Louise Scodie – NABS  

Welcome to the NABS Podcast your essential listening for mental wellness at work.

This is where we find out how leaders across our industry take care of their mental wellness and better their teams. Together, we’ll get refreshed and inspired.

I can’t wait to start chatting.

This week our guest is Nicky Kemp. Nicky is a journalist, editor and event host with over two decades of experience. She’s editorial director of Creative Brief and a member of the associate board and co-founder of the social learning practice Good Shout. Nikki started her career as a financial journalist before specialising in tech, social trends and marketing. Her work has appeared across titles including Campaign, WGSN, Reuters, Bloomberg, The Guardian, and The Observer. A passionate advocate for diversity in all its forms, she is also a co-founder of DICE, which is diversity in conferences and events. Nikki was named as one of the 200 women redefining the creative industry by The Dots, and Everyday Action Award winner by Bloom, a Pitch 100 Super Woman, a Power Part Time winner, and a Campaign Trailblazer of the Future. Nikki is a proud member of WACL, Women in Advertising and Communications London, and believes community is the key to a happy and successful career. Nicky, welcome to the NABS podcast, how are you?

Nicola Kemp  

Really well thank you so much for having me. And thank you for that lovely introduction.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

You’re very welcome. Very exciting all round. We’re all about mental wellness at NABS. So, my first question to you is, what does mental wellness look like to you?

Nicola Kemp  

I think that’s such a good question. And firstly, I have to say I am such a huge fan of the work that NABS does in this space, I think it has made such a difference. And in my own experience, working in advertising and journalism, the conversation has shifted so much, and particularly the fresh generation coming in the way that they talk about their mental wellbeing as a work in progress is actually really changed some of my behaviours. So mental wellbeing, for me, is really about accepting the things that I can’t control, but then being quite militant about controlling the things that I can control. Because I feel when you can’t control your time, it’s really different difficult to control your wellbeing. And particularly when it comes to exercise and movement. For me, I have to be outside. I love being outside. So it’s thinking about how I can work that into my day, whether it’s can I walk to that meeting? Can I get that bit of space? So it is really being intentional about looking at what I have planned in my working week. And being actually honest, is that achievable? How can I make that a little bit softer in the places that I can and make that time for movement and silliness as well?

Louise Scodie – NABS  

When you do that? Does that make it easier for you to put up with the stuff that you can’t control?

Nicola Kemp  

Yeah, I think it’s a really interesting challenge, particularly in an industry that’s so client driven, you have to be honest and say, my work life balance, or my work life blend isn’t perfect. You know, this week, I’ve had three days in a row where I know that I’m going to leave the house before my kids wake up, and I’m going to come home before they go to bed. So I’m not planning for perfection. But in those areas where I know, I can plan, you know, why would you plan for example, you know, to have your creative review last thing on a Friday. We’re becoming a much more process-driven industry. So in my own processes, and in the parts of my diary that are much more internal focus that I have much more control on. I’m much more mindful about when I’m committing to doing things. So I guess it’s playing the long game, recognising that sometimes there are going to be weeks where it’s just not going to work. But for those bits that I can control, being really mindful of, actually, is that the best time to schedule that meeting? Can we move that forward? Can we think about how that impacts people’s working weeks in a bit of a smarter way?

Louise Scodie – NABS  

It’s a really good point. To what extent do you think people might be impacted if they’re perhaps working at a more junior level? So they don’t have that same kind of agency and might have meetings just shoved in all over the place?

Nicola Kemp  

I think this is such an interesting debate, and one that I’ve been having a lot because there’s a lot of different views on this. I think where possible, it is having that open conversation and also it has to really be on leaders to be really mindful not to just cram every single day with as many meetings as possible, because do you remember right the beginning of the pandemic, there were lots of articles about digital surveillance. And there was this real assumption that perhaps people wouldn’t work enough. And I think if we’re being honest, as an industry, what’s happened is, people have worked a lot. And we’ve also really, really introduced in some areas of real area, aspects of digital presenteeism. There’s this really horrendous stat from Microsoft that since February 2020, there was a 252% increase in the amount of time spent on Microsoft Teams. So the volume of meetings people are having is really, really huge. And I think it’s just really on leaders to be really intentional about who’s in meetings, and for what, because, especially when I’m talking to some of the younger women that I mentor, a lot of the time, they’re going to meetings, and they’re not actually speaking. So I think there’s a real important point about why are people in meetings, what are they for? Are you creating a culture where people feel that they need to turn up to things that perhaps aren’t really going to give them energy or drive your company or your brand forward in any meaningful way? So I think it is that balance of leaders taking responsibility, and recognising that actually, they’ve got a really big role to play in the wellbeing of their teams.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

Yeah, agreed. And also being open to challenging questioning over meetings, you should feel empowered, shouldn’t you to say, I see you’ve invited me to this meeting? How would you like me to contribute? And if the person organising it doesn’t have a good answer? That’s your answer right?

Nicola Kemp  

I think it’s also really important within the wellbeing discussion, and we’re all struggling, if I’m honest with the transition to hybrid working. If a meeting an official meeting is the only connection that you have with your teams, then you might have a problem. You have to really think about what connection you’re having, through which channels at what times because meetings over meetings aren’t a substitute for actually really connecting with your teams.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

Yeah, absolutely. On the connection tip, connecting with people on social, really active on LinkedIn, and Twitter, particularly talking about diversity issues, you are a true activist in the space. And what I’ve noticed is you’re also really brave when it comes to showing the personal and your professional. Now, not a lot of people do this, you will put photos of your kids up on LinkedIn, particularly your football-playing daughter.

Nicola Kemp  

I’m so proud of her. I can’t stop. It’s just it’s so interesting, isn’t it, and I was having a discussion about this recently. And it’s such a balance. And I think it’s a tricky one, right. And I think if I’m really honest, as a business journalist, I often was as an individual, looking for proof points, that the way I wanted to work could work, that the things that are important to me, were important to people who are making it to the top. And I think the language of leadership really has to change. And I think it’s really a challenging one for the ad industry. I think we have a real culture, awards culture in some way, which means that you present this utterly frictionless, perfect creative process that ends with a gold lion. And I think we do the same when it comes to our career journeys. We present these very linear, very perfection-orientated visions of our careers. And I think that’s quite toxic, particularly for women. And I’m personally really committed to calling that out. And I can do that on a personal level, because you know what it’s like when you’re juggling a young family, demanding job. Yeah, we’ll always be weeks where the wheels come off. And I think it’s really important to be honest about that. Because definitely, you know, I’m, I’m at that stage now where my kids are at school. So I’ve come through that real pinch point of coming back to work after maternity leave. But if I’m honest, in that period of thinking, is it actually possible to thrive as a working mother in the creative industries? there just weren’t proof points? I was looking around and going, where are they? And even now, I get so much energy from proof points outside of you know, I read all the magazines, I’m obsessed with media coverage and how leadership is presented. But actually, when I think about where am I finding the proof points? It is LinkedIn, it’s actually finding out that, you know, my daughter’s class rep perhaps happens to be incredibly senior at WaveMaker. So seeing the other side of a woman’s success that is just still not as presented in mainstream media, I think is really, really important.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

And you have more of a sense of control over what you’re saying in these spaces as well getting back to control. But it makes me wonder what the mental wellness effects of being so open in these channels is, and that’s both positive and negative. I mean, I can, I can hear from you the joy that you find in sharing proof points and hearing about them from other people. But has there been any backlash? And have you felt vulnerable, exposed anything that’s impacted on your mental wellness?

Nicola Kemp  

Definitely. And I’ve definitely had points in my career where I’ve been told, you know, essentially dial down the feminism, which is, you know, as anyone who has a genuine belief in something that’s part of who you are, or, you know, I’ve never pretended that I love my job more than I love my family. I don’t I also don’t pretend that there’s one way of doing things. You know, I have huge respect for women and men who choose to work in a completely different way. To me, I definitely don’t think it’s a one size fits all model. But equally, I do think there is always a price to pay for telling the truth, particularly as a woman, and I’ve had feedback that I’ve been to negative or feedback that it’s not appropriate to share that it’s a struggle sometimes. And honestly, I think it’s a real balance. Because I don’t think all feedback is a gift. Sometimes on social media, it’s a sucker punch. And like any woman with any kind of profile on social media, I’ve had the dick pics, I’ve had the on solicited advances, you know, and the fact that you have that on it on professional platforms like LinkedIn, I think it’s really important to be honest, as disgraceful, that still happens. But ultimately, I don’t want somebody else to dictate how I use the space. Yeah, it’s, it’s up to me as an individual to be really aware of how much I want to share. And when I need a break from it, and you know, it’s very tricky for journalists, because social media are the prime is the primary distribution platform for a lot of the content that we’re producing. So it’s really, really important. And from a business perspective, we’ve, you know, hugely benefited from LinkedIn. It’s, it’s incredible, and I’ve met so many people through social media, but I do think it’s important to also be honest, and say there is a price. And there is a weaponisation, and I think it’s much more acute for women of colour. As a white woman, I don’t get that same stereotype of the angry Black woman. But I do think that there is a weaponisation of women’s voices. And that’s something that I see as having a really negative impact on the industry. Because we only see one side of things we only see one type of voice we only see one TYPE of proof point of what career is success looks like. So I think it’s a really ongoing thing. But I think the really great thing is there is a real shift happening. And definitely over my career. I’ve seen the transformation of thought leadership. I mean, when I started out I thought there were about four men in the whole advertising industry because, you know, no events to mark Ritson and Rory Sutherland, but you would go to presentations and I would say, oh, Mark, Ritson Rory Sutherland, Byron Sharp, there’s three dudes, these are the only guys that there’s no industry, they are the voices. Whereas now I think we’re seeing this real democratisation of thought leadership, which is so exciting to me. And it’s so much more driven by ideas, and you’re just seeing brilliant, fresh perspectives, from lots of different sides of companies. And I think that’s going to be so important moving forward. And I think the big companies in our industry needs to be much more proactive in that and recognising that actually, if they want to attract and retain the best talent, they need to make space for a much more diverse range of voices and really support that talent in making their voices heard.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

All of which helps us support our collective mental wellness because hopefully you end up in a situation where everybody feels comfortable at work and people feel welcome and included in the industry.

Nicola Kemp  

100%, and we talk so much about authenticity, authenticity and marketing, bringing your whole self to work. I don’t actually believe in bringing your whole self to work. I think there are parts of yourself that should you should protect and keep an eye on parts of yourself that right are a little bit jagged around the edges. Like you don’t want to see me without a cup of coffee.  You don’t need that worse side of me.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

I just like to point out the first thing we did when Nikki arrived was make her a cup of coffee, thereby avoiding any argy-bargy.

Nicola Kemp  

Never knowingly under-caffeinated. So I actually believe that people should really try and bring a specific energy to the workplace. But I also think workplaces should provide the structures and foundations where they can protect that energy. Yeah, so you can bring your best self because you’re being supported to do that.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

And that your manager can hold some space for you. If you’re experiencing some kind of challenge to help you then get back to…

Nicola Kemp  

100%. 100%.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

So you’re not just a brilliant journalist, you’re not just an advocate for diversity, you are also the co-founder and creative director at a training company called Good Shout, and a Good Shout, you’re now showing other people how to show up as themselves, albeit with the bits you want to hide squirrelled away. So what tips and tools do you give to your delegates to support their mental wellness when they feel bold enough to be open?

Nicola Kemp  

I think this is such a great question. And Amy Keane, who is really the force behind Good Shout, who is also coming on the podcast, she is phenomenal. And I think what Amy does brilliantly, I think, I think I really believe in training, learning and development, I think it’s really, really important. But I also think that there are particular issues that women face with training and development. And when I started out as a journalist, and I was in magazines, and that it very quickly became apparent that events were going to be the space where the magazines would make the money that they were losing from the declining circulations. And we quickly had to shift from being writers to hosting events, it’s very different skill set. But we would have a very particular type of male journalist that would come to teach us to be exactly like, like him. And it had the exact opposite effect on me, it made me think there is no way that I want to speak any events, I don’t want to host a conference, I am nothing like this man who’s telling me to use my hands to show how big a loaf of bread is, this just doesn’t feel like me. So I think what we really capitalised on with Good Shout and really understood is that everybody has the ability to show up with their own unique voice. And a lot of the training in that space has really created more work. And what has been so amazing about working with Good Shout has been seeing that actually, if you can see the way that women can just unlock how brilliant they already are, you can really make big, big gains without loads and loads of times. So one of the key things that we teach our delegates is all about how to make a point. So it’s a punch and a proof. And really, and then progress, like how are you going to make progress with that. Because a lot of the time, what we find is women are saying no to things that they are massively overqualified to do because they think they don’t have the time to prepare for the panel. So I think it’s some of those tips and tools, but also having that really honest discussion about feedback, because a lot of the women that we train, have had some feedback at some point in their career, or even at university, which they have like a wheelie suitcase like they’re dragging this with them onto the stage of every conference that they’re speaking out that somebody has told them that they’re too loud, or they’re too opinionated, or their accent is too much. So there’s a job to be done as well to recognise that the norm, women aren’t the norm. It’s the Cindy Gallup quote, we’re not the status quo. So it’s just shifting some of the internal monologues that women and men we train men as well can hold on to of that one thing that didn’t go particularly well. And we found as well that the COVID situation really exacerbated that because people had experiences whether they did a terrible pitch, or they had a conference online, and it all went a bit wrong. Maybe their cat attacked their computer or whatever. But they didn’t have that moment. You know, in real life, if something went wrong, we could just have a chat about, they didn’t have that moment where you could just defuse that. So that crisis of confidence really escalated. And I think that’s leading to quite a lot of friction in workplaces as well.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

So it sounds to me that some important tools for mental wellness there. If anyone’s looking to speak in an event or be bolder in any kind of way, is to find some way to work on their confidence, to find someone who they can speak with about deconstructing any of those myths and lies ahead, and also finding some space even if it’s not just there. And then when something happens, but finding some space in the day or the week where you can just chat through any snafus that have happened and get some perspective.

Nicola Kemp  

Just you know, channel that well-known business influencer, Princess Elsa from Frozen and just let it go, let it go. Sometimes you just think there’s such a tricky balance to be had, because I think feedback is so important. And good feedback can be so transformative. But you have to really think critically about what is this feedback for? Why is the person giving it and if that feedback is about what you look like, or your accents, that isn’t feedback that you should carry with you, that’s feedback that the person giving it needs to learn from, and learn to be more inclusive. And I think there’s a lot of women that still struggling with feedback that they’ve been given.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

There is a difference between feedback criticism and someone’s ridiculous opinion. And you have to work out what that is. What tools do you need, as a working mum in adland – I’m one of them – to help support your mental wellness? So what can managers in our industry do to support working mums? And in fact, any working parent who’s the primary caregiver, yeah, to support their wellbeing?

Nicola Kemp  

I think that’s such a good question. And I think there’s a real gap between policy and progression, because it is your line manager, who has the real fundamental difference, have a view on your experience as a working mum, and I was really lucky that transition point I had really caring line managers, and it does start with a conversation. It really does. I think, at an industry level, there needs to be those policies in place. Because there are some line managers that don’t have those skills. I think as an industry, we’re very, very informal. And people, a lot of people have not had any formal line manager training, they don’t actually know how to manage maternity leave. Sometimes the infrastructure isn’t there. And it’s just a problem for them to solve. And I think we really need to recognise that our careers are a marathon and they’re not a sprint. I really think retention should be a KPI. It really should be a KPI, particularly when it comes to people with caring responsibilities. And it starts with having that conversation. Because sometimes I feel that there can be things I often speak and it is primarily women I’m speaking to that are struggling with that return to work. And it can be really small things such as, actually, you know, the company I work for as mandated that I need to be in three days a week, but one of those days I can’t do because my husband or my partner is already working that day, and I can’t get back in time for them at the nursery run. There’s all these friction points. And I think actually, my biggest piece of advice would be for companies to stop sending out press releases about what their working structures are, and have conversations with their employees about how they need to work to work. They’re the best that they can. Because I think what’s happened is a lot of companies have gone to a solution model without having the conversation. And I think, you know, we’ve seen all the data from pregnant then screwed. We as a country are in the midst of a childcare crisis. I am out the other side of this. I don’t have children at nursery. But I think it’s important to understand that the cost of nursery has gone up exponentially hugely. The availability of nursery places has gone up. And I think it if we really want to build an inclusive industry. We have to sit with that. And look at what we can do. And there are signs I think it is phenomenal. That AMV BBDO they are giving their employees, the primary caregiver, they’re being subsidised for the first year that they come back that sort of stuff that makes a difference, not sending out a press release about your working structure that actually sometimes your employees don’t even know that that’s the working structure. That’s how they found out that they’re supposed to be in the office, in an article in a magazine that’s just not inclusive.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

It’s individual, supportive conversations and individual conversations.

Nicola Kemp  

And no one’s expecting perfection. And I think it’s it goes back to that point of this myth of a perfect process, whether it’s a creative piece of creative work or a career, like there’s going to be friction points in this. And there’s going to have to be flexibility on both sides. But I think this myth that companies have got the answer, and the answer is, this is how many days their employees are going to be in the office. The future of work is a huge, huge topic. And it’s a huge area for growth. And we’re such a creative industry. But we are so fundamentally uncreative in the way that we design jobs. This is a once in a generation opportunity to reshape the workplace. And for those of us who’ve had that, like sweaty-palmed rush to the nursery, because you’ve got an editorial director who always wants to have a conversation with you at 5:30. On a day where you’re doing the nursery pickup, you know, you know that that’s not good enough, and it has to be better for the next generation. And I worry with some organisations that the leadership team is very out of touch with the experience of the women at that period. And it’s primarily women, I know, I’m a huge advocate for shared parental leave. But at the moment, this issue is disproportionately impacting women.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

I just like to say, even if your child is at school, this is still an issue. Two words, school holidays. Completely changes your abilities and your working hours, holiday camps are so expensive, and then you end up with your kids sitting at home for some of the date anyway, because hours don’t match up. You just can’t work in the same way. So there’s always a challenge. And it’s by having a conversation really openly with your manager about this is what’s happening for me. And this is what’s going to happen next month, how can we, how can I get supported in this, I think that’s the way forward to get some help

Nicola Kemp  

And it’s about line managers and leadership teams being really proactive about this issue. Because we know the statistics, there is a huge, huge talent drain of incredible women out of our industry. And also, newsflash, mothers, we are a massive, massive, massive, massive market. So you’ve got companies that are trying to sell us stuff and also squeeze us out of businesses. And it’s like that that isn’t the way forward. And interestingly, you know, anecdotally lots of women that I know that have left agencies have gone into brands, and then you’ve got agencies trying to sell to women who’ve been squeezed out of their businesses. And that’s just not good for anyone. It’s not an industry ethos that most people I know, support. And I also think that is a real opportunity for line managers and leadership teams to be on the front foot with this to actually talk as teams, how are you? You know, how are you navigating the summer holidays? Do you need flexibility on the days you’re in the office? Do you need, what do you need? And those conversations aren’t happening? And then all the pressure is on the individual caregiver? And whether or not they feel comfortable enough, or they have the tools to speak up and ask for what they need?

Louise Scodie – NABS  

Definitely, that’s the question. Our support team always asked when people ring us up, what do you most need? And that opens up that conversation. What is one thing that we could all do to support our mental wellness this week?

Nicola Kemp  

I would say and I know this sounds so simple, is get outside just get outside and go for a walk. I think during COVID we really normalised a level of multitasking. That was barbaric. Yeah, agreed. And I think we’re holding on to a bit of that sometimes. And it’s really easy to forget that actually, we still need to do those walking talks or whatever it is to actually get outside to stop what you’re doing to walk away from your screen. I think it’s a real transition period. And I think it’s important to recognise that as organisations. And as individuals, we haven’t got all the answers yet. So there is a lot of messiness. But actually, those little things can make a big difference. Because I think we all have days sometimes where you get to the end of it and feel like you completely lost control of it. Yeah.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

What would be a big tip you can give to help people before they get to crisis point?

Nicola Kemp  

I think you have to be really honest with yourself. That finish line of when things will return to normal is consistently moving. And I think in such a fast-paced industry, we really have to recognise is this going to move? Are these things actually going to move? Or what can I actually change to get back a bit more control of my day? Because I often find when I’m speaking to women or that are struggling in their careers, is that losing control of your time? And I know it’s not always possible and you know, there’s so much that it isn’t in anyone’s control even when they’re in leadership. You know that the last-minute client requests, but I think if you can really have that real discipline of looking at your week and going right? How am I going to make some space? Do I need focus time? How do I actually work my best? And keep going back to that, because we are transitioning. And, you know, I’ve seen really senior people struggling with things like conferences in real life and just being exhausted at the end of it. So just give yourself the grace that you would give to your friend, in how you manage your own schedule. If that makes sense.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

It’s interesting to hear about senior leaders being exhausted and overwhelmed by conferences. So I do remember when we started to come out of lockdown, having a face-to-face conversation with someone was exhausting. And that that’s just one-on-one. And what are we nearly three years on now, just over three years on from where it all started. And those feelings of exhaustion and overwhelm are still there. We can’t negate what we went through. It was enormous.

Nicola Kemp  

I think that’s such an important point. And I think we’ve become numb to some of the figures around this. I mean, there was a Deloitte Women at Work report that showed almost half like 46% of women feel overwhelmed. And I think that’s, that’s really difficult. That’s a difficult stat to sit with. And I do think some of it is, is transitional. And some of it’s how we manage our diaries. I don’t know about you, but I’ve sometimes been a bit terrible with I’m supposed to be here and then I’m somewhere that is miles away, because we’re just recalibrating because when we’re on Zoom, we could just go back to back to back. And I think there’s, there’s a real point in that in terms of actually reconsidering how we work best. We just did a really good thing a good shout this manual of me that a company called leapers, do which you really just go through, you know, what, what am I like when I’m stressed? Like, what am I? What do I need to work in my best way, and sometimes we don’t have those conversations. So I think it’s just making space for those and recognising that they can change as well. You know, I’m 43 now. And I feel like I’m just coming into my really ambitious stage of my career. But I’m aware that I work in an industry where only one in 10 people are over 45. So I think we’ve just got to give ourselves a bit more space, but also really embrace the activism of challenging an industry which keeps on perpetuating the myth that people have a use by date, particularly women in their 40s, who seemingly turn to dust.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

So much to pick up on the what I’m hearing is, it’s really important to make some space to actually and you can do anything about.

Nicola Kemp  

You don’t have to do it all at once, you know, one bite at a time, but I think is just constantly making that space. I’ve been reading a book, which I massively recommend, called The Blend by a wonderful woman called Tobi Asare.  And it’s just really making me reconsider some of my assumptions about what does actually a good work life blend looked like how do I achieve it? Case studies from other women. I just think it is that real belief that we don’t have all the answers. And also, I just have to pick you up on the ageing point. I think it’s just so good. I really feel like much more in my own skin in my 40s than I did.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

I don’t need to be 25 anymore. Sorry. 20 and 25 year olds, but you know, I’m done. It’s sort of whatever, I sit at home in my tracksuit bottoms. I have a small child and a job. It’s all good. But it’s about that, well, if I’m looking to progress my career, obviously, my age isn’t on my CV, but you can tell that I have quite a few years of work experience, am I going to start getting discounted out of roles, because there are still those prejudices in the industry.

Nicola Kemp  

And it’s just it is so ridiculous. And I just feel so passionately for the women coming into the industry. Now. We have to challenge that that I don’t want you know, I look at my brilliant young colleagues and I do not want them to have that ageism you know, that experience of ageism, you know, and I’ve had that I had an off the cuff comment from an agency CEO the other day that I always saw you more as a sorry housewife than a Soho House member. It’s just, there’s so much wrong with it.  But I just think actually by talking about it, it takes the sting out of it. I’m not going to let somebody else define how I feel about ageing. That’s that’s in my gift,

Louise Scodie – NABS  

Of course, and we should definitely be talking about stupid comments like that and bringing shining a light on them, bringing them to the open so that we can smash open those prejudices.

Nicola Kemp  

Yeah, sorry. I’m not a Soho House member either just for clarity.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

This has been such an enjoyable chat. And I can’t believe we’re already at the last question. But we are at the last question. What is the lesson you’ve learned about how to support yourself?

Nicola Kemp  

I’ve really learnt to not bring my whole self to work. But I’ve learned to bring the bits that I’m not comfortable with to work with me as well. Because if I want to change things, which I really do, I passionately believe that we do have a responsibility to make things better. And I think that’s why NABS is so important. And I think to do that, we have to get a bit more comfortable with uncomfortable conversations. And I think I’m naturally very much a conflict avoider. That’s my personality type. I don’t like conflict, but actually, to maintain my mental wellbeing, and to have the career and the ambition that I have. I have to get more comfortable with conflict and boundaries.

ouise Scodie – NABS  

I love boundaries. And I think you’ve raised some really important points there. As you have done throughout the whole podcast, it’s been an absolute pleasure, the industry would be a poorer place without you, being so open and honest and being brave about what you’re going to bring out into the public space with you and challenging ridiculous perceptions across the industry for the common good. So thank you so much.

Nicola Kemp  

Thank you for having me. I’ve loved our chat.

Louise Scodie – NABS  

If you’ve been affected by any of the issues that we’ve talked about, then you can always give us a call speak to one of our support team. And there are lots of ways in which we can help you with your mental wellness and all sorts of things. Do have a look at our website nab.org.uk. And you might also be interested to know that we offer training specifically for managers Nicky was talking before about how lots of managers aren’t yet equipped to deal with the challenges of today’s workplace and supporting their team’s wellbeing. Have a look at our NABS Advance products in particular. It’s been an absolute joy and a pleasure. We will see you next time.
Goodbye.