Louise (00:02.049) 

This week, my guests are Ben Irons and Joe Dolan from Microsoft Advertising. Ben is managing director, travel, Microsoft Advertising UK. Ben’s had previous roles at Yahoo and PhD Media, as well as notonthehighstreet.com. And he’s often to be seen judging at industry events and awards. Ben is a DEI advocate and he’s co-founder of Microsoft UK’s Dads community, as is Joe. 

Joe is commercial director, retail FMCG Microsoft advertising. Joe is a seasoned client-facing leader who’s been at Microsoft for the past 14 years. He’s co-leader on the Dads at Microsoft UK board. He’s passionate about nurturing wellbeing and helping others to progress in their careers.  

Together Ben and Joe run the Dad’s ERG at Microsoft advertising. The group is a space for dads and some mums at Microsoft to come together to have a chat about what’s going on for them to share their experiences and even to have a bit of fun while they’re doing that. The pair have got great insight on what it takes to support dads in adland as well as a few survival tips for parents in this busy industry.  

Ben and Joe, welcome to the NABS podcast. How are you both doing? 

Ben Irons (01:18.012) 

Very well, thanks Louise. Thanks for having us. Really excited to be here. 

Louise (01:21.422) 

It’s my absolute pleasure. Joe, how are you doing? 

Joe Dolan (01:23.407) 

Yeah, really good. Thanks. That was very nice introduction. Thank you. 

Louise (01:27.648) 

Good. Very pleased you’re happy with it. Luckily, this is virtual. So if you weren’t happy with it, there’s nothing you can do about it now. There’s so much to talk about. And there’s two of you. So let’s just crack in. really excited to jump in for so many reasons. Because you’re working dads, you’re advocating for working dads and working parents, you’re doing some really exciting work. So we’ll talk about all of that. But first of all, can you both tell us about a mental wellness journey or a challenge that you’ve had to face? 

Joe Dolan (01:29.7) 

Ha ha ha. 

Joe Dolan (01:59.79) 

So, go on then Ben, shall I go first? Okay, beautiful brains, there we are. Okay, look, so our mental wellness journey was a pretty heavy one, so strap yourself in on this one. Pretty much defined by a bit of a challenging time with our son, Freddy. So, Fred was born very prematurely, spent three months in NICU, so neonatal intensive care. 

Ben Irons (02:02.494) 

You go first, Joe. 

Joe Dolan (02:26.938) 

And to be honest, it was a bit of a battle, lots of uncertainty, lots of worry, hell of a lot of exhaustion as well. And actually my wife and I had to lean on each other quite a lot. And it was a pretty difficult decision for her to not then return back to work. And actually that then meant that it left me in a position of trying to balance a demanding job whilst being there for Freddie.  

Freddie needed round the clock care. Every day was like a really, really finely balanced and finely tuned balancing act. We’d wake up early, we’d leave for work, head straight to the hospital. We’d be with him from quarter past eight in the morning, continue to eight in the evening, grab some dinner while the nurse is handing it over, then go back about 11 o’clock at night. And then we’d head home.  

And actually heading home was a really, really difficult bit. You’re leaving your kid in hospital, albeit in those capable hands of many an expert, but you know, he would, you know, we’d always make the conscious decision not to leave until he fell asleep. You know, I had it in my head that I couldn’t let him see me leave the room until, you know, he was, he was asleep and that made us a bit better. And so I’d say from our point of view, that mentally was, was super tough. 

We’d wake up in middle of the night. You know, you’d never know how much joy we got from phoning up the ward at three o’clock in the morning to find out that his oxygen saturation levels were absolutely fine, or had a poo, or just generally had an uneventful night. And look, I think for the three months that we went through this, we repeated that day in, day out.  

We tried to hold our lives down as it was happening. The responsibility of the job, that emotional wellbeing piece, really taught us that mutual support, that empathy between us both and you know, that being present with each other, we’ll probably talk about being present a bit later, but, you know, really, really important, really stressful time. But, you know, thankfully we’re now through the back of it. Freddie’s nine, absolutely thriving. And, yeah, a distant cry from what we experienced nine years ago. 

Louise (04:36.62) 

That sounds incredibly tough and I’m really sorry to hear that you went through that. I am delighted to hear that Freddie is now a strapping lad and may he continue to thrive. Ben, what can you tell us about a mental wellness challenge that you faced? 

Joe Dolan (04:50.266) 

Thank you. 

Ben Irons (04:56.808) 

Yeah, I think no surprise that it’s going to be linked to parenting as well. hence why I suppose some of the conversations we’re, we’re, you know, keen to have today, you know, thinking on the challenges, everyone has challenges, different life stages. I think sometimes the, know, as you move between different life stages, you know, yes, you have experienced different, different challenges along the way. I think that that decision to become parents is a massive one and not one that people, I think anyone takes lightly. 

I think the preparation for that whole process is so limited because you have no experience of it, that you’re sort of thrown in at the deep end, so to speak, when it comes to, as Joe just described, different situations hit you without any preparation and without time. We were, you know, fortunate enough to have our first little baby boy, Rory, in 2018. The process of that, of him, I suppose, coming to fruition wasn’t easy.  

I don’t think you make the decision to have a kid thinking, yeah, it’s going to be super easy. We’ll get pregnant very quickly and move on with our next life stage. That isn’t the reality, I think, for everybody. And, you know, we were lucky that after, you know, quite a long time that eventually came, came to us and he was great. You we decided then to have another one. And unfortunately, you know, we went through a miscarriage on the second time. And I think as a, it’s on your mind, but I don’t think anything preps you for how you’re going to react or how you’re going to feel.  

And I suppose, especially as a dad at that time or I suppose a man or a male to start with, but as a dad as well, there’s that feeling of you’ve let somebody down, you’ve let your wife down or partner, I suppose, if you’re not married, be in my case, we were married and you feel like you’ve let them down and there’s nothing you can do about it. The messages coming back are, yeah, this happens really often, it’s more common than you think. 

As good as staff were fab overall, but we were dealt with in a relatively cold and transactional way of sort of, I’m really sorry for your loss, sign these forms out, you go sort of thing and you thrust back in. And we were lucky we had Rory at that time. And it was, was, know, that was an incredibly comforting reality. But again, that message that comes to you of it’s all right, you’ve already got one. So don’t worry about it. I’m sure it’ll come back around as, as true as that might be. It’s not what you’re feeling at that time. You’re feeling very. You know, let down yourself, like I very disappointed. You’re very, there’s nothing you can really do other than be, be there for your partner, but you feel like you’ve let them down.  

And at the same time, this was September 2020, and we’re in the middle of lockdowns and dealing with a whole life event that was going on at the same time. Suppose my big challenge was, was trying to navigate all of that being, being a leader as Joe and I are in our business and being seen to be in control and navigating a scenario that none of us have dealt with before, managing teams through lockdowns, through becoming virtual overnight, and at the same time having sort of family challenges and great stuff going on.  

Obviously we had some great extra time with Rory and probably got to see him a lot more as he was growing up and developing than I probably would have had COVID not happened. But at the same time, that feeling of a real sort of let down and disappointment that you we weren’t at that point able to have a second one.  

Thankfully it did all work out. We did end up having little Gethin. He was born in September 21 so you know not much more than a year later. But navigating that whole time and throwing the Covid situation in you know even looking back now I’m still not entirely sure how we all did it collectively as a society but even in our own circumstances you know… 

Ben Irons (08:30.366) 

Amy had a miscarriage on a Friday. I was back in work on a Tuesday and although my manager was fantastic, I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know how to, how should I react? Should I be grieving? Should I not be grieving? Should I be wallowing in self pity? I can’t do that because Amy’s the one who’s really suffered here. just trying to figure all that out for the first time, having never had any experience of it was really tough, generally really tough. 

Louise (08:54.454) 

And again, I’m really sorry that you went through all of that and it does sound incredibly tough. And to be honest, I could do an episode each on the challenges that you face and how you got through them. Look, it’s a testament to both of you. And I would say that your testament to your relationships as well, that you were both able to come through. And I think as we go through our conversation, we’ll come to some practical survival tips that might have applied then and also as you continue through your family life. 

Joe Dolan (09:02.595) 

Okay. 

 

Louise (09:24.876) 

So you’ve got Freddie, Joe. So is that you set, or did anyone else come into the family? 

Joe Dolan (09:27.672) 

Yep. No, so we’ve decided to dive back in again and have part two of the madness. So I’m a dad of two boys. I’ve got Freddy, who’s nine now, Leo, who is a bundle of joy at five years old. I’ve been with Steph, my wife, for 17 years. I’ve been married for 12. She is a saint walking amongst us. Yeah, couldn’t, obviously couldn’t have done any of this without her. She is, she’s an absolutely, absolute godsend. 

Joe Dolan (09:59.866) 

And she’d be really embarrassed to be talking about her on a podcast. My very first… Let’s do more of that. Yes. 

Louise (10:03.466) 

Marvelous. Let’s do more of it. Big up Steph. And Ben, you’ve got your two boys as well. Rory and Gethin. 

Ben Irons (10:10.196) 

That’s right, yeah, two boys. Rory’s now six and he’s in year one, so was going to say second year of school in year one. yeah, Gethin is three. And in the names you may have picked up, we’ve got an Irish and a Welsh connection in our family. So Amy’s from Ireland and I’m from Wales. We wanted to have that as part of our names for our family and that throws up different challenges Amy’s family are all based in the west coast of Ireland. My own are all based in Wales. We’re based in Surrey.  

It’s a… we’re navigating not having family close by and also trying to make sure they’re connected to us and they’re part of our lives as much as we can but even with a school you realise how much sometimes you rely on a network around you and that’s something else we even had to deal with during that whole Covid period –  was not being able to see families and various other things as well and they were also feeling that pinch. So yeah we’ve got like an Irish Welsh English scenario going on which is always fun at the Six Nations Rugby which is happening right now which is good as well. 

Louise (11:07.338) 

Yeah, exactly. Many interesting conversations happening there. So do you think that that sense of not having any available support nearby was in any way a contributing factor to creating the Microsoft Dads ERG? Was it, I mean, how did that come about? Was it a need of, we’ve got to create our own support network or were there some other factors in that as well? And explain to us how the ERG works as well. 

 

Joe Dolan (11:38.658) 

Yeah, so I’ll jump in on this one. So from an employee resource group point of view, Dads at Microsoft is part of the Employee Resource Group as part of the wider Microsoft Families ERG. And the reason that this was set about was really to provide that supportive network for fathers. 

Joe Dolan (12:37.594) 

When we look at, as Ben said earlier, balancing the kind of professional and the personal lives, it’s a group that comes together that addresses those unique challenges that fathers are facing. When you look at the kind of the experience that we went through with COVID, balancing those work responsibilities with the family commitments, making sure that the employees at Microsoft, and especially the dads at Microsoft have those resources and networking opportunities that really help promoting that work-life balance piece and providing support for many employees. And again, it’s not just open for dads. We do make sure that we welcome mums into the group as well. It’s always important to make sure that we’re both sharing our own perspectives across seeing what dads are talking about. It’s always great for the dads to hear what the mums are talking about as well. So it’s not just solely exclusive to dads. 

Ben Irons (13:34.358) 

And yeah, Louise, the thing I’d add to that, like as you mentioned, I think what we realised is, know, Ireland or Wales are not miles away, but there are people with family that is quite far away. You know, our group covers people from EMEA and they might be living in the UK where their families are in Europe or even further afield. And it wasn’t probably until we opened that up that we realised how many people were in that similar situation, that they did feel a bit disconnected. 

And they were managing through it in various, some may have experienced that over many years, but it did make you realise more people are impacted quite strongly, but more people are affected by being disconnected from their family and not getting to see them. That actually just having a very simple call to chat with other parents in similar and different situations was helpful. Like Joe said, I think that sense of community really then sort of grew from there. 

Louise (14:27.99) 

It sounds like you’ve created your own village. You know that old phrase about it takes a village to raise a child. And I guess in your case, you’ve created a village to support the dads and the mums as well at Microsoft, which is a lovely thing. So how often do you meet? 

 

Ben Irons (14:42.006) 

So we’re going for monthly if we can, whether that’s always possible, sometimes not, but at least once or twice a quarter to have a connection point. And especially also around big events, whether it’s sort of pre-Christmas, if Christmas is coming or summer holidays, there are always really interesting connection points and good chat around that time because people were wondering how everyone else is getting on with their Christmas shopping and what the hot pressie is for a five-year-old or even an 18 year old at that time. And summer holidays, how are people gonna navigate childcare over six weeks and you start cursing teachers because they have so much time off and why do schools need to be out for two, three months at a time?  

But it’s all light-hearted, but yeah, it’s trying to figure out who’s doing one day here, one day there, how many camps are available, how do you access that? And then it becomes quite practical then, without jumping straight into the detail, but it gets practical.  

We had a call a few weeks back and the dad was asking, how do you navigate half term? Is it one week, are there camps available? Is Microsoft, does Microsoft do anything to help with that? And it does become an informational share and sharing tips as much as just listening to people complaining. 

Louise (15:53.122) 

That’s really good to hear because one of the things I found about parenting is there’s so much you don’t know and you really need another parent who’s done it to tell you, how would you know that there are camps for kids?  

In my mind, when I decided to have a child, I just thought, I’m going to have a baby. And I just pictured me holding the baby, maybe doing the occasional feed, walking along with a buggy. That’s as far as I got. I did not think about getting into the maelstrom of homework and summer camps and ADHD support and all of the other stuff that is my lived experience of parenting and… 

Ben Irons (16:22.474) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Louise (16:28.212) 

It sounds as though YouTube got, and everyone has these multifaceted, multi-layered experiences of parenting that you need to share with other parents. What I’m also really interested in is if I contrast this with say the dads when I was a kid, very traditional, usually the dad would go off to work and leave everything to mum. Whereas now dads are a lot more involved in all of those decisions about how to raise the kids as well. 

 

So how do you manage your headspace when you’re thinking about, I don’t know, summer camps, hospital appointments, but then also I need to go and manage my team and look after them. 

Joe Dolan (17:09.466) 

So it’s effectively that mix of work and family life. I feel quite strongly about this. I’m pretty, and Ben, you’ll know this, I’m pretty unapologetic about creating a bit of clear distinction between work and family time. I’m really privileged to have my boss know this. She knows that this is something I hold dear to me. My boss’s boss knows this as well. And actually really importantly, my team know it. 

I’m all about setting those firm boundaries. I’m all about making sure that I’m immersing myself in both worlds without actually compromising the other one. So when I’m working, I give my best to the team. I give my best to my peers. But when I’m with family, I make sure that I’m present. And again, it comes back to that being present I talked about earlier on. How do I be there for my family? How do I be there without distractions? And what that means is being super intentional about, you know, logging off at the end of the workday and then not diving back in. 

I don’t know whether you remember during COVID, you always had the kind of laptop in the kitchen or in the office. There was no real disconnect between work and play as I coined it at the time. And that actually, it took COVID to help me realize that I needed to have that clear distinction between work and play because otherwise everything just broke down to an absolute mess. And we didn’t do our best as parents during that time. The other piece is… 

Joe Dolan (18:36.642) 

I love taking a long holiday, Ben, you’ll know this, have to cover for me. I’m a big believer in taking extended breaks. think, you know, a week is not enough, two weeks is not enough. I’m all in for the three-weeker. I have an incredible support system around me in my management team that will cover me. My boss is great if you’re listening, boss, thanks. 

Ben Irons (18:40.022) 

He’s always on holiday, Joey. Always on holiday. 

Louise (18:43.544) 

Brilliant, tell us more. 

Louise (18:54.456) 

How’d you get three weeks at a time signed off? 

 

Joe Dolan (19:06.24) 

It’s really important because actually when I first did this a couple of years ago, I came back to the office. She took one look at me and said, wow, that really, really did work. So encourage me to do more. So how do you take that three weeks? Look, it’s not just the three weeks that I would take. It’s actually the run up to the three weeks. So it’s all the planning that goes into it. It gives you that kind of focus on there is light at the end of the tunnel. There’s something to be aiming for. 

Joe Dolan (19:35.692) 

And, and that, that, that gives me the kind of cathartic release that, you need. And, and do know what? You then come back, you’re sharper, you’re energised, you’re more focused on what needs to be done. You know, I’m lucky enough to have a great team that when I’m not around, they get on and do the work that they need to do and they do it. they do it really, really well.  

Louise (19:59.872) 

Okay, but I know what a lot of people listening are going to be thinking and you know what I’m going to say because I can tell, because we can see each other for this podcast for anyone who’s listening and I can tell by the look on their face. You are blessed. 

Joe Dolan (20:05.646) 

Yes. 

Louise (20:13.71) 

You are blessed with supportive management. You are blessed with a great team. Not everybody is in that position. So Ben, if I can throw it to you, you got any practical tips for maybe setting those boundaries that Joe suggested? If you don’t work in a team or a culture where extended holidays are a possibility, where parenting isn’t seen as the load that it really, really is. 

Ben Irons (20:39.71) 

Yeah, this is really tough one. think from our experience, you mentioned it before Louise about the traditional kind of upbringing and I would recognise that for sure. For you know, my own upbringing was that way because of the necessity, right? My parents were both pharmacists and they owned a pharmacy together, but my dad pretty much ran that business and worked there… 

Louise (20:55.17) 

Yep. 

 

Ben Irons (21:03.126) 

…five and half days a week, you he worked on Saturday mornings and my mum would pick up the load effectively of the family and that was until she went to work then she gave up work to have kids and actually I without realising it we replicated that ourselves.  

You know, Amy had a career as personal trainer that didn’t fit with being a mum of young kids and she had to give that up and I was the one going to work and that event that existed for all of us called COVID, like Joe mentioned, has thrown up so many learnings. To answer your question I think taking the learnings of COVID were about increasing communication and opening up those communication lines to say that you know that nine to five Monday to Friday, or Monday to Thursday work from home Friday, is going to shift and it is shifting  

Ben Irons (21:52.138) 

Without saying it, it was a terrible situation for a lot of people. think for others, it was a light bulb moment of, don’t want to carry on doing that, that sort of rhythm and the rhythm could change, but there was an open conversation. My sort of tip or I suppose learning for people to take is be prepared to have and be brave to have that conversation to say, these are the things that are important to me. 

Ben Irons (22:15.892) 

This is how these are my, these are what drive me. These are my triggers, excuse me. These are my passion areas and have that conversation. And until you have that, you might not know what the reaction might be. And sure, if it’s a, if it’s a negative reaction, then I suppose you’ve got to ask yourself, is that the type of culture you want to be in?  

That’s going to be the best for you and bring out the best for you and make you the best, sorry, enabled you to be the best parent or best friend or whatever it might be, partner, wife, husband, etcetera. And that’s not easy. And of course we recognise that. I think Microsoft thankfully is quite progressive in encouraging that openness. I think, you know, that being prepared and looking at yourself, suppose, to what have you learned from that whole situation? Where are you now? And what brings you happiness, joy, energy? 

What can you do to make sure that carries on and who do you need to speak to, who do need to tell and enlighten them on why is it important that you’re able to do the school run on a Wednesday afternoon, because actually you want to be there you know some of we perhaps weren’t afforded only five six years ago we’ve now maybe got the opportunity to do. 

 

I want to do that, but as Joe said, maybe you’re making up time in a different way of working. Maybe you work in slightly different hours to accommodate, but you’ve now got that opportunity. So it’s not easy to completely understand that. But if you don’t talk and not say anything, I think you’re probably not being true to yourself about what is important to you and how you can maybe make a difference to yourself. 

Louise (23:38.314) 

Yeah. And I would mention at this point, the NABS Advice Line, which is free to call. And our support team are great at having conversations with people who don’t know where else to turn, or they’re trying to work out their thoughts. So if you’re thinking, this is not working out for me in the way that you’ve described, I’m not sure how to have that conversation with my manager, or I don’t know how to get some space to just work this out, call the Advice Line. They will definitely help you. 

Ben Irons (24:03.23) 

Yeah, there’s loads of good resources and that’s a brilliant one for sure and just being able to have that conversation could make a massive difference even if you think it’s a simple thing. 

Louise (24:13.164) 

Yeah, absolutely. Because if you don’t work in a supportive culture, it can be very difficult to pluck up the courage to say to a manager, I’d like to work in a certain way or this is really challenging for me. So give the Advice Line a call first and they will help to bolster you, give you what you need in order to work out what you want to do and how you go about it.  

Now, this has also brought up a couple of interesting points. Generally what issues you’re seeing coming up for parents at the moment. And also this wider culture shift that we’re seeing where more and more places are politely requesting slash actually demanding a return to office.  

And also without mentioning any huge conglomerates, companies that may be asking for a more masculine energy. And I’m not sure that’s entirely complimentary to masculine energy, where the kind of dadding that we’re talking about here might not be welcomed and where working parents may not be treated as flexibly as they should be. 

Louise (25:16.692) 

How much of an issue do you think this is going to be in real terms for parents on the ground working in the UK? And are there any other issues coming up? Maybe things that people are discussing in the ERG that we need to turn our attention to this year to better support working parents. 

 

Joe Dolan (25:34.51) 

Yeah, I think the return to office piece is definitely something that pops in the kind of wider industry sphere. You know, my humble opinion and people potentially might not really agree with me, but I do feel that coming out the back of COVID, the hybrid working piece, you know, the return to office piece has to be balanced quite finely.  

You know, if I look at those parents, especially those parents with young children, you know, look, they’re grappling with that uncertainty of actually, am I doing here? How am I providing the best environment for my kids, as well as juggling that working piece as well. And actually that remote work has really helped parents in that piece, know, how they’ve been able to then juggle those commitments to work, but then also commitments in personal life as well.  

So look, there’s a huge amount of disruption with the new return to office piece that’s bubbling up there. I’ll come onto the masculinity piece probably in a later piece, but I think that creates a particular amount of stress, you know, especially when, if I, if I look at my situation, I made that decision to move out of London away from the office and I have an hour and a half commute in, hour and a half commute back.  

And actually if I didn’t have that flexibility or I had to return to office, you know, full time that we do it, but then that would put stress on, that would put stress on kind of the, the, the family life and then to go back to Ben’s point it would be Steph potentially doing a lot of the historic mum stuff because I would be forced to be in London five days a week potentially.  

I think the other piece is there’s a growing expectation about being on all the time as well. And actually that kind of presenteeism online and being available at all times is key. And I think, again, that’s a huge, huge struggle to deal with. 

Joe Dolan (27:32.258) 

Especially when you’re juggling with those responsibilities at home. There’s bits around parental leave. There’s quite a lot popping at the moment around, you know, is the UK getting the best deal for dads from a, from a parental leave point of view? You know, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve been campaigning within Microsoft around the new, and actually this is very specific to us and probably a niche focus, but those mums and dads who have kids preterm, like we did, when, when should that paternity or that parental leave start? 

Joe Dolan (28:01.85) 

And there is the argument that the parental leave really should start on the due date that the kid is born rather than the actual date that they’re born on. And actually there’s a new law coming in which is really, really welcome to take into account. So actually parents don’t miss out on that full-time parental leave with their child. there’s a huge amount of stuff out there at the moment that’s causing issue for parents. Look, I would call for empathy.  

If I look at my team and, how I deal with my team, you know, it’s those honest conversations has been said it’s, it’s making sure that, you know, one size doesn’t fit all right. Everybody is different. Everyone has different ways of doing things and just bringing that flexibility. 

Louise (28:42.774) 

Absolutely. There’s so much coming out of this conversation that you could just investigate for hours and hours. With the parental leave… 

Louise (28:56.064) 

What you really need is nuances also for adoption and for surrogacy and for people going through the IVF process because parenthood now is not just a straight journey and it’s the same for everyone. So it’s really interesting hearing you talk about that neonatal piece as well. Ben, what issues, is there anything else that you’d add to that in terms of issues coming up? 

Ben Irons (29:22.676) 

Yeah, probably a couple of actually maybe just to build on a couple of things Joe mentioned. I think just as observers of the return to work piece, I think what’s interesting is some of the reactions being quite quick and quite aggressive of not wanting it. And that is a, as anybody who’s observing companies who are putting that policy into play how quickly, I wouldn’t say there’s been a revolt, but if the feedback is very clear and obvious that isn’t how people want to return to work.  

And actually, if you think about it, as I think about it, the way we work now is so different to how was before, because like Joe mentioned, we now have an online environment that we are working in as well as a physical one, to bring people back to the office will then change how that dynamic works. Whereas not everybody is in the same position, it’s going to possibly increase workloads because you’ve got this hybrid. I’m online, but I’m also in the office and I’m trying to have face to faces, but there’s a lot of stuff happening online. You know, it could cause some challenges there. And I think the, you know, we’re… 

Ben Irons (30:22.046) 

We’re obviously very conscious, like Joe said, conscious about overloading people with time in the office, time away to do the online bits and making sure that the time they are together or in person is as most valuable as it can be. So it’s just been interesting to observe how quickly some of that reaction has come out. And that should give a lot of signals as to how people feel compulsory return to work policies might actually land with employees. I think the other bits I touch on with Joe, what we see popping is the different kids’ life stages. 

Ben Irons (30:53.746) 

Challenges are coming through pretty clearly from you know young kids and similar to what Joe and I’ve both experienced in terms of the second income versus childcare, you know what are people’s thoughts on that, you know should we be encouraging in our cases our wives to go back to work even if their salary only covers partial or some of the childcare that is needed to cover them not being in work.  

And Amy and I had that chat as well. I wanted her to feel like she wasn’t just a mum and she was doing something else. And she retrained as a teaching assistant to work three days a week, which also accommodates us for school holidays. So there’s a practical element there, but also just means that she’s moving away from just being a full-time mum and actually has another mental challenge to deal with in terms of being a skilled worker and working with kids in that regard and others have come with that challenge as well.  

Do we support our wives and say yeah absolutely go back to work even though the financial reward might not actually be net benefit at all. And all the way through we had a really interesting listening circle a couple of months back around older kids and going to university and again you know a lot of us on the calls are slightly younger dads or dad, sorry, of younger kids and some of us are considering ourselves still young. Some would have it the other way. But you’ve got parents who are at the latter stages of their work career, but they’ve got kids in university and they’re talking about the challenges that that brings up, all sorts of other ones. And then the third one I would add, which I think pops as much now as it ever has, is the devices. And not just… 

Ben Irons (32:34.26) 

…how to use them, but what age should kids have a device? And everyone has a different viewpoint on this, but it feels like people are seeking a lot of opinions on what are you doing? Are you giving them a full smartphone? Is it just a phone that they can make a text on? Do you put an air tag on people’s phones? I’ve heard it all. Think we’ve heard it all in the, whether it’s a water cooler moment in the office or whether it’s on a listening circle that we’ve hosted, different opinions and different viewpoints on. 

Ben Irons (33:03.19) 

What’s the right, I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer, but no, it’s what’s comfortable for you probably is the only answer, but that seems to come up a lot. And the anxiety, can feel parents’ anxiety they have about, I want to give them a device because I want to know that they’re safe and they might start walking home from school because they’re 12 or 13 years old, but I don’t want them to be subjected to social media there. And you can see the whole spiral that comes from there then. 

Louise (33:27.788) 

Welcome to parenting, a world of anxiety. What’s really interesting is that where the ERG is based at work, you’re not just discussing issues that pertain very narrowly to being a dad at work, i.e. how do I manage my time, but it’s also spreading out into those wider issues about parenting as well and giving you all a sounding board and a listening ear, which is great. So you have your listening circles, they’re online. 

Louise (33:54.382) 

Do you decide the topic for the listening circle in advance? And do you ever have ones that literally just bring whatever you want to the table, let’s have a chat. 

Ben Irons (34:02.26) 

It’s a combination of both really. What we try and do is ultimately it’s space. We’re just creating space and whether it’s Joe and I facilitating or some of the other leadership group we’ve got, we’re not experts, right? We’re not counsellors, we’re coaches. We do a lot of coaching in our roles, but this isn’t a manager led group. A lot of the LCR individual contributors themselves, they’re not practicing sort of coaching and managing daily.  

But what we’re trying to do is create space and often we have to end up with a very simple what’s on your mind and then it goes in any direction depending on who’s joined and that’s fascinating because you wouldn’t want to limit to topic areas. What we do try and do though I’d say and Joe jump in on anything I miss here is we obviously try and make sure we pull away the themes that we need to follow up on. 

Louise (34:40.011) 

Hmm. 

Ben Irons (34:56.086) 

Whether it’s an internal policy piece or informational piece related to somebody’s experience at Microsoft and something we are maybe lobbying for, like Joe mentioned around the neonatal piece. Paternity leave is another one that’s quite a hot topic that we are thinking about how we maybe communicate that back into the business on people’s thoughts on, you know, should we be looking at our paternity leave policy differently now versus competition? 

Ben Irons (35:23.402) 

And then other than that, it’s maybe a very open, could be as simple as I’m going on holiday. What’s the best tips for traveling with young kids? You know, anyone got any good ideas? And it becomes a very, and that’s where the balance of sort of serious and light-hearted comes in because you get somebody coming in with, we might throw a question out there, tell us your biggest fail from the last week. And then you get 20 minutes of hilarity of different fails that have happened… 

Ben Irons (35:48.936) 

…in the weeks and there’s that sort of humorous jovial nature to it, as well as the actually we need this group to maybe help us with something or help me with something. 

Louise (35:57.142) 

Yeah, tell me a bit more about the humorous element, because I know that you’ve also applied that when the topic itself is really quite serious. And what do you think the advantages of making serious subjects lighter with humour and does it go down well with the rest of the ERG crowd? 

Joe Dolan (36:14.634) 

The dads, I’d probably say the dads are slightly more irreverent than, I don’t know, maybe the wider ERG perhaps. I think humour is such a powerful tool. It helps engage, it helps break down barriers. Do you know what, helps relax these people as well. Those people that come to the listening circle, sometimes you’ll see in the first couple of minutes that the room is quite quiet. If you can break that ice… 

Joe Dolan (36:40.42) 

..people that you wouldn’t expect to contribute to the conversation, start contributing to the conversation. They actually come up with some pretty heavy topics as well. So when you are talking about serious things or to lighten the load a little bit more, an element of humour is welcome. However, we’re mindful of the audience. We make sure that that humour is inclusive. We make sure it’s appropriate. And we read the room. And look, it removes the barriers. It makes sure that we’re connecting with other dads. 

Joe Dolan (37:09.368) 

Microsoft UK is 8,000 people at the last count. 

Louise (37:12.588) 

And how many people have you got in the ELG? 

Joe Dolan (37:15.738) 

Microsoft UK all up is 8,000, ERG, I wouldn’t have that number to hand. But the point is we are able to break down barriers of people that we wouldn’t necessarily speak to on a regular basis anyway, because our jobs and our roles aren’t linked. So it’s a really nice icebreaker from a listening circle point of view to meet fellow dads and have some fun with it as well. We work so hard and we spend a lot of time at work. 

Joe Dolan (37:45.046) 

If you can help something that might be a bit heavy or a bit tough with little bit of humour, then that always goes down well. 

Louise (37:52.908) 

And interesting that you’re not using external facilitators or therapists or anyone in that arena to lead the group, but you’re doing it yourself. 

You did mention that you’ve got those leadership coaching skills. You’ve got that in your toolbox. Have you had a situation where someone’s brought something that is actually really heavy to the group and how you’d go about handling that? Thinking about if anyone’s listening to this and wants to set up an ERG at their company, but worried about, if someone says this really, really serious thing, how am I going to hold space for that? 

Ben Irons (38:24.82) 

Yeah, I’d say we we recognise that in ourselves definitely and what we would do and have done I think in that situation is immediately point somebody at the route. The help that’s available to employees at Microsoft through different, not care schemes, but different ways they can contact counsellors or arrange, know, counselling or something.  

I think we’re very clear. We’re authentic in ourselves. The humour side of it comes out if that’s who we are, but we do understand the balance. And I think we’re human enough to know when somebody is really looking for professional help and that goes beyond our sphere of expertise and that emotional intelligence to know, you know what, somebody’s genuinely looking for help here.  

And we then point them towards different initiatives that Microsoft has for its employees to seek more professional structured help that we definitely can’t provide. I think I would say it’s a, we see that as a strength in the sense of, we’re happy that people are prepared to come and share, you know what? I’m really struggling here, I actually need help, but we also know we’re not the right people to necessarily help them in that moment. As is probably the case in our own teams as well.  

We know when there’s a line of we’re not professional enough to deal with what they need to have the support they need to have or the conversation they need to have with somebody. So we’re happy that we’re able to bring that out, but we, I would say we do know when that line is drawn and we know, right, actually this isn’t for us, but we then list off all the different ways people can help. And do know what happens off the back of that?  

I think the last time this happened, the amount of people on the, on the listening circle call then jumped in with, yeah, I’ve used this one or I’ve used that, or my parents have used this one. You know, I’ve, I’ve got them to use it. And suddenly you’ve got this advocacy of the support that’s available at a more professional level. And I think you just see that flying in the chat or in the conversation. It’s been great. 

Louise (40:17.378) 

Now that’s really cool. We’re focusing a lot on training managers at NABS at the moment, giving them the skills they need to support their team’s mental wellness, which is chiming very, very well with what you’re both describing in terms of Joe, you having that manager support and Ben recognising that you can hold a conversation.  

But as a manager, there’s a point where you say, okay, I’m going to refer you for further help. So this is all the kind of stuff that we’re teaching people with our managers mindset’s training skills. Now, could you think of one example or one tip how a manager could best support working parents, especially if your working parent on your team has come to you to say, I’m really struggling with flexible working or return to office, or I’m worried about my child and I can’t think about work. What’s that one tip that you would share? 

Joe Dolan (41:05.846) 

I think from a management point of view, if I put my manager hat on at Microsoft, our kind of priorities in our roles are to model, coach and care. So a lot of it comes out through the modelling. And so if you’re creating that culture where the team feels comfortable, you know, to, for example, if, if I, if I’ve taken time, if we go back to holiday time, right, if I’ve taken an extended break for me to reenergise, to refocus, if I’m modelling that behaviour, my team know that they’re comfortable to do exactly the same. So it’s how do you create that environment where everybody feels empowered to, set their own boundaries, to, to find the balance that, that they need in their lives and actually to ask for help when they need it without, without that kind of judgment piece. 

And that’s really important. You create this environment of psychological safety where people can come to you and say, look, I am struggling here. And then we either coach them in a way that we feel if it’s related to the job, then we can coach them in a way to help them in that role. Or if, and as Ben mentioned earlier, you are in need of expert advice, we then follow them through to the right place within Microsoft. 

Joe Dolan (42:21.368) 

And I think, you know, trusting your team to feel, you know, that they’re empowered to make those decisions for themselves ultimately is a way of building the culture, building the team, you know, and driving that team forward. allowing space for people to air worries and creating that safe space, like we do in the listening circles, but on the team level, I think it’s something that we try to do as much as we can as managers. 

Louise (42:48.974) 

Alright, so some great tips there. Role model your behaviour and create psychological safety and a space for people to talk. If you don’t know how to do those last two things, check out NABS Managers’ Mindsets. We have Mental Wellness Conversations and Inclusive Leader are the two courses that you should start with. It’s part of our charity, so you can register for free and they will give you some great tips and tools on how to do that. Ben, what are your practical tips? 

Ben Irons (43:12.83) 

Yeah, I think what would I build on that? For me, it’s like, I think it’s this don’t underestimate the simple things that somebody might need or might want to talk about. These can go a long way for parents and it can be as simple as, you know, we talked about earlier around sort of being effective as people working in a hybrid environment. The time you have meetings, like don’t have meetings bang on nine o’clock because actually…. 

Ben Irons (43:39.19) 

It might be difficult for a parent coming off the school run and be ready for nine o’clock, right? So don’t, if as a manager and as you’re, you know, some managers will have kids, some won’t. And I think there’s that level of empathy Joe mentioned earlier, but don’t underestimate the simple things. You know, I’ve heard many people talk about social events happening always outside of work hours. Well, not always great for families. Meetings, I said, nine o’clock in the morning or around three o’clock. 

Ben Irons (44:07.382) 

Maybe not great for if somebody’s on the school pickups. think little things like that can actually go a long way. I talked about being able to have that conversation and yeah, that’s a bigger topic of being prepared to create an environment like Joe mentioned where you can actually sort of say, you know what? It’s not great for me.  

You know, I’ve got pick up on this day or that day or do you know what, nine o’clock is really hard for me to get in or every time I’m coming to a nine o’clock, I’m gonna be rushed off my feet. But actually having that conversation and saying, right, what days do we work best? When are we at our optimum? I do work with somebody who’s always said to me, do you know what, I’m a co-parent, I have my kids Monday, Wednesday, sorry, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, but I’m sorry, I don’t have them then, I have them Thursday, Friday. So maybe we can avoid in-person meetings Thursday, Friday, because that’s not an issue.  

Thankfully, it’s not an issue for us. I’m pleased we were able to make that accommodation and that he’s able to share them with others. That is also a need for him. So yeah, they might sound simple, but don’t underestimate how the simple gestures can make people feel and feel included. 

Louise (45:12.75) 

I completely agree that honestly, that stuff is transformative. From my perspective, I know that I can say to my manager, I can’t do that meeting at that time in the office because it’s half term and camp hours suck. So can we change that? She will say yes, absolutely. Yeah, and you just, it changes your life. It changes your life. Otherwise, you’re just so stressed out about trying to get from A to B.  

Yeah, simple right? It changes your life right? 

Joe Dolan (45:37.082) 

And I’d say your productivity will go up as well because you’re trusted, you’re trusted to your role. Yeah, it’s a good life. 

Louise (45:44.686) 

Exactly, it’s that trust piece that you’re talking about, Joe. Let people behave like adults so they can do that extra two hours work at a time that suits them instead of slap bang in the middle of the school run, for example, they’ll still get it done. The world’s not going to end. A bit of flexibility is always good.  

The other thing that I would say that really reflecting on during a conversation is if you don’t give dads flexibility and if you don’t give dads space to talk and share and unload, then you’re actually, you’re doing mums or dads’ partners a massive disservice. Everyone in that parenting relationship needs to have the same degree of flexibility and emotional support. Otherwise no one’s able to do anything. 

Ben Irons (46:27.52) 

You you’re absolutely right. When Joe mentioned we have dads, of course, but we also have mums on the call. we’ve asked them, they’re voluntarily shared, they want to understand what’s going through the dad’s head so that they can be better partners and wives to their partners at home as well.  

And that’s, you’re absolutely right, a mentality of learning and understanding what’s going through a dad’s head might be very different to a mum’s head. It might be very similar, but they want to learn. That’s why it’s really interesting to get the contribution from the mums on the calls as well. 

Louise (47:00.28) 

Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s essential. I’m glad they’re part of the ERG. Now we’re coming to the end of our conversation, which is very sad. But we have two great questions. So that’s very good. Firstly, how does the advertising and marketing community lift you up? Joe, let’s start with you. 

Joe Dolan (47:16.934) 

How does it lift me up? So look, I think we live in this fast-paced bubble. You know, it’s a space full of really intelligent people, really creative people, really collaborative people. And actually, I think it’s the energy that everyone brings to the table and you’re constantly learning. for me, it’s how do you… 

How do you use that sense of community and that fast-paced environment to keep yourself growing? And look, it’s not always in the work. It’s actually in stuff like this where you’re talking about things outside of work as well, such as the dad’s community. You know, I’ve got it in my head. I would love to create some kind of dads in media group, listening circle, collaboration with other people in the industry.  

Because I think there’s a lot that we can all offer each other outside of our day jobs to kind of say, look, we’re all in the same boat, or I really want to understand how you do things at your organisation. I’d love to share how I do things at our organisation. And I think it’s a community and an industry that would probably lend itself very nicely to something like that. So I’m all ears off the back of this. 

Louise (48:26.114) 

That is a great idea. You heard it here first, get in touch with Joe. I’m going to post Joe and Ben’s LinkedIn details in the show notes. If you want to do a cross-industry dads group and make amazing things happen for parents across the industry, get in touch with Joe, make some magic happen. Ben, I’m sure you’ll be a part of that as well. How does the advertising and marketing community lift you up? 

Joe Dolan (48:32.442) 

There you go. 

Joe Dolan (48:40.73) 

Amazing. 

Ben Irons (48:47.414) 

Yeah, just on that, yeah, I think it’s wherever Joe goes, I tend to follow. So yeah, I’ll naturally be dragged into make that happen for sure. But no, it’s a great idea and I would love to do that. And actually just on the back of that, think for me, our community, to me, it’s quite small. Like it feels small. You meet people along the way, you stay in touch, you might work together, you might then work as… 

 

Ben Irons (49:10.294) 

Uh, as colleagues, said, together, or maybe on different sides of the same conversation. And it’s amazing how, know, the people I first met when I first joined the industry, sort of 15, 20 years ago, are you still in touch with them? You don’t see them as often because you’re all, you’re busy being parents, basically what we’re doing. I’m living your lives and traveling, whatever it might be. And it’s actually through, you know, organisations like NABs and various others that bring you together. And it’s like you 

Ben Irons (49:38.236) 

never left. You’re still having the same terrible banter that you had with them 10 years ago, but you just are now talking about kids or you just don’t get to play as much sport because your time is taken elsewhere. So I think what lifts me up is it’s amazing how many people are in the same situation, like Joe was saying, and actually there’s a much wider community than what we know just inside Microsoft that are going through similar things.  

You’ve come through, I wouldn’t say come through ranks, you’ve grown up with similar like-minded colleagues, males, females, and sharing those stories and getting those chance to meet up at different events and being part of same industry. It’s a small industry, it’s amazing, like I said, who you meet on the way on your journey and it’s great to catch up with people and like I said, sometimes it’s like you’ve never left, you’re still having the same chat you were 10 years ago, but things have changed slightly. 

Louise (50:28.716) 

Lovely. And finally, what’s the best lesson you’ve learned about how to support yourself? And if you think about something really practical, that would be amazing. 

Joe Dolan (50:40.681) 

So I’ve talked a lot about split between work and life. So I won’t go on too much about that. The kind of the other piece I’d look at is, you because we live in such a quick-paced industry, it’s building that strong network of trusted advisors. Actually it’s really easy to get tunnel vision on a certain thing. It’s really easy to get bogged down in a challenge. And if you try and do it on your own. 

Joe Dolan (51:08.666) 

So you’re not, you’re not going to succeed. So the one piece that I’ve tried to do is to, to build on that close network of advisors. And actually those advisors can be professional and actually they can be personal as well. And the ultimate goal of that is to seek a different perspective of something that I probably might not have thought of. There might be a blind spot that I have and actually seeking that input from other people helps you kind of reframe your ideas, helps you reframe your challenges. Look, there’s times where it actually helps reduce stress. You know, I’ve used this, this method… 

Joe Dolan (51:38.828) 

a lot in my personal life, you know, having gone through the early years with Fred and a lot of the complications, you know, leaning on people and trusted people to share that problem has really worked. And, it’s talking through the problems that help you see it from a different angle. And do know what? It really does make the difference. So build your kind of your trusted network of people you can rely on. Top tip. 

Louise (52:02.958) 

Yeah, that’s a really good one. And I guess the ERG is a bit like that as well, like an extended network of advisors, as you were saying, people were swapping resources and advice. Ben, what would your best lesson be about supporting yourself? 

Joe Dolan (52:07.343) 

Yes. 

Ben Irons (52:15.382) 

Do you know what? I would say, so I’m going to say, yeah, hopefully it’s not too controversial, but it’s okay to be selfish. none of us say that, right? Because we’re all given our time for different reasons. And do you what? was a learning that came up on one of our calls actually was one of the dads just sharing, he was just having to intentionally make 30 minutes in his day. Don’t know if Joe, remember this conversation, but was saying, 

Louise (52:23.254) 

Yeah, say that more because parents never hear that, parents never say that. 

Ben Irons (52:45.174) 

He had got to the point where he got too much and the only way he could address that was to say to his whole family and Joe just mentioned it communicate, talk to him to say, I knew 30 minutes. I just knew 30 minutes in a day to be me, whether that’s to, I don’t know, watch some something on TV or just sit quietly or go for a ride or go for exercise, whatever it might be, but it’s okay.  

And I think that just probably made us all realise we should be encouraging that it’s okay to be selfish. It’s okay to have passions and interests. Of course, yeah, what comes off the back of that is don’t be unreasonable and don’t just leave your family in the lurch or whatever it might be, but communicate that, talk to your wife, partner, husband, girlfriend, whatever it might be. These are the things that interest me. I’d just like to take some time to do them. 

 

You do the same and share and enable both of you, especially as parents, as a team. I remember Joe telling me this years ago saying, don’t split, don’t be divided, like don’t play off against each other. Because I think I was asking him about, you know, as kids get older, how do you navigate certain things? And he just gave me that advice, said, don’t be united. Even if behind the scenes you might not fully agree, present some kind of united front so that you’re together. And you are together, of course, it’s a partnership. 

Ben Irons (53:59.764) 

Have your own interests. Amy and I both like exercise. We make sure each other has time in the day, in the week to do that because it’s really important to us. And then we have other areas of interests that are separate as well and are specific to us as well. So it’s difficult to say, sorry, it’s difficult to say it’s okay to be selfish, but you know what, actually it’s okay to be selfish every now and again. 

Louise (54:25.442) 

That is a great note to end on and not one I thought we would end on given that we’re talking about parenting. But yeah, make some time for yourself. Stuff everyone else. No, I’m joking. Well, maybe sometimes. Within reason. No, if you don’t put on your own mask, your own oxygen mask, then you cannot help other people. And that is a metaphor that we always use at NABS. And it’s so true. You’ve got to fill up your own cup. 

Ben Irons (54:34.634) 

Within reason… 

Louise (54:49.89) 

Then you can fill up your cup and be the support that you need to be. Right, you have been absolutely marvelous, both of you, Joe and Ben. It’s been so nice talking to you and we’ll pop all the resources in the show notes. You can find out more and remember to get in touch with Joe and Ben if you want to make more things happen for dads across the industry. 

Joe Dolan (54:57.37) 

Thank you. 

Ben Irons (54:59.094) 

Thank you very much. 

Joe Dolan (55:09.444) 

Thank you very much. Thank you. 

Louise (55:10.53) 

Thanks very much guys. 

Ben Irons (55:10.838) 

Thanks.