Episode 26: How to navigate alcohol and addiction

NABS Advice Line nabs.org.uk/how-we-can-help/advice-line/

NABS Walk and Talk nabs.org.uk/walk-and-talk/

Drinkaware drinkaware.co.uk/

Tabbin Almond winetowatercoaching.com/my-story

NABS Managers’ Mindsets nabs.org.uk/managers/

Louise (00:01.666)

This week on the NABS Podcast, my guest is Natalie Bell. Natalie Bell is CEO of MG OMD. Natalie’s well-respected for her people-first leadership approach, with the agency listed in Campaign’s Best Places to Work for five years and in the Sunday Times Best Places to Work 2023 and 2024.

Natalie was recognised as the top UK media leader in Campaign’s Review of the Year in both 21 and 22 and she was awarded Media Week’s Media Leader of the Year in 22 and 23, as well as Campaign’s Leader of the Year, both UK and global in 2023. Natalie is a trustee of NABS and also a proud member of WACL. Natalie, welcome to the NABS Podcast. What a list of accolades. How are you today?

Natalie Bell (00:49.072)

Thank you, Louise. I’m good today, thank you. It’s a bit grey and miserable, which affects the mood a bit doesn’t it, and I’m working from home today which I end up with a little less energy. I’m definitely someone who takes energy from being around other people but I’m well. Thank you, how are you?

Louise (01:06.432)

Yeah, very nice of you to ask. Thank you very much. It’s always good to have a chat to lift the spirits. So I’m looking forward to getting deep into conversation with you over the next few minutes. Now let’s dive straight in. Can you tell us about your own mental wellness journey and any challenges that you’ve had to face?

Natalie Bell (01:25.97)

Yes, sure.

So look, I’ve been in leadership roles at my agency for almost 10 years now, both as MD and CEO. So I think it’s super important that we all recognise those around us, our own experiences and our lived experiences around mental health and educate and have empathy for everyone around us that are going through different things.

And I love that the world has opened up in this way and we talk about it more. But when it comes to my own lived experiences, I have been through quite a lot in my life, particularly with my mum.

She, I talk about this quite openly, but I think for quite a long time probably suffered undiagnosed from depression and from bouts of depression. I certainly think from stories I hear she had postnatal depression, which of course wasn’t diagnosed then. And, you know, we used to use words like she’d had a nervous breakdown, which is obviously a horrible phrase now, but she in later life struggled a lot with alcohol.

 

And so, and it’s a very difficult relationship between depression and alcohol. It’s very sort of circular, if you like. One is often a cause for the other and often it’s the other way around. So she was an alcoholic. I don’t like the term alcoholic. You and I have spoken about this, I just find it such a distinct determinant of what someone is, you know, and obviously people are way more than just what that word is.

Natalie Bell (03:13.072)

It’s also a spectrum, alcohol use disorder is a spectrum. So just identifying someone as an alcoholic, I find quite uncomfortable. However, she did have alcoholism, severe alcoholism. And through my 20s, that got very bad for about a decade.

And so we really struggled to find her the help she needed. She went into rehab several times, she attempted her own life several times and sadly when I was in my late 20s we lost her because of the impact it had on her body and it just wasn’t recoverable.

So that’s my lived experience of mental health challenges and as you and I have discussed I’m really, really keen to open out those conversations around alcohol and addiction because they’re just not talked about. We’re so much better now talking about mental health. We’re so much better at understanding different forms of neurodivergence, but we just don’t go anywhere near the topic of alcoholism and addiction.

Louise (04:25.71)

Well, I think there’s a couple of things to unpack there. And first of all, I want to say how sorry I am that your mum went through all of that and how sorry I am that you and your family also bore witness and bore the effects of all of that as well. What I’m interested in is clearly it would have affected you in a lot of different ways. And you mentioned that things got very intense during your twenties when you would have been forging your career as well. So…

Natalie Bell (04:38.452)

Thank you.

Natalie Bell (04:51.497)

Yeah.

Louise (04:53.24)

How did all of the stress and the worry and the upset of what was going on with your mum affect you in the workplace? And I’m assuming you weren’t able to talk about it in an open way because things were very different then. How did that affect you?

 

Natalie Bell (05:08.748)

It’s a great question and one I’m not asked often actually, people talk about the impact for her.

And it’s such a horribly complex thing, part of and witnessing, as you say, and being part of someone’s life that’s going through that. And I didn’t, I didn’t talk about it at all to anyone, really. I mean, even in my family, wasn’t talked about. I certainly didn’t bring it to work with me.

And, you know, I had moments. And you’re right, I was forging my career then. And I had moments where I was living in London. My mom was in Portsmouth and she would call me and say, I can’t do this anymore, I’m so sorry, goodbye. And I’d be in the office, you know, and I’d have to call the ambulance and try and get people there.

And, you know, this was going on, but it was such a taboo topic. I never, ever felt that I could open up about this. And that’s why I’m passionate now to make sure that we do open up about it because people are going through this.

Every time I speak about this, and you and I have been on a panel recently, I spoke about it, people approach me afterwards and go, I’m going through this, you know, personally or more often with somebody else that they’re caring for. And it’s so hard to hear and they go, thank you, I don’t know who to talk to about it. And so it’s a great question. Thank you for asking. Because I think that’s exactly part of the problem, it is people don’t talk about it.

Louise (06:38.444)

Yeah, and I’m so grateful to you for being so open about it today. I just want to check in and make sure that you’ve been able to access support since those days of having to shut up and put up.

Natalie Bell (06:50.107)

I have, have, I’m… we’ll come onto it, but I’m a big believer in… in just therapy in general from a preventative perspective as well as a crisis perspective. But it took me an awfully long time to get anywhere near talking to anyone. And again, because we’ve been on a journey, right, societally and certainly professionally in talking about mental health and raising awareness for where you can get support.

But even when my mum was in Alcoholics Anonymous, for example, there was very little stretch of services that helped those around her, and so it was it took a while until I did, but I did, thank you.

Louise (07:33.658)

I’m glad. Isn’t there, forgive me if I’m getting it wrong, is there Al-Anon? Or there’s an organisation that sounds like Alcoholics Anonymous and they exist for people that are adjacent to people who’ve got problems with alcohol.

Natalie Bell (07:46.964)

That I do not know, so that’s a great thing. 

But I’ve been working with a lovely lady, actually Tabbin Almond, who’s a coach in this space and offers therapy for people in a different way. There’s a charitable organisation called With You that offer support to anyone affected, including families. So there are so many more places now. Interesting that I wasn’t aware of that and I never was at the time. So yeah, certainly we didn’t get that help, unfortunately.

Louise (08:57.998)

Okay, well, first of all, we’ll pop a link to everything that we mentioned in the show notes. Secondly, it’s important to point out that everyone’s going to have their own experience with whichever groups or treatment modalities that they encounter. But there is one challenge you’ve identified that you know, universe is going to say that again, there’s one challenge that brings us all together as an industry, which you’ve identified, we’re not talking about addiction enough. And there’s there has to be a better way forward. So…

Natalie Bell (09:08.58)

Exactly, exactly.

Natalie Bell (09:23.006)

That’s right.

Louise (09:26.422)

With your lived experience of addiction, talk to us about where we’re going wrong and where you think the way forward might be given that we are quite an alcohol friendly industry.

Natalie Bell (09:37.993)

Right.

 

Right, we really are. and look, I see what I’ve encountered is I’ve been on this journey myself, I didn’t want to talk about it for a very long time. So much shame and guilt and judgment comes with this subject matter. And obviously, the subject matter in its broader sense also encapsulates illegal addiction, right? So nobody will go anywhere near that.

And so what I found is, it was hard for me to open up about my experiences. But then when I did, I started realising just how complex a subject matter it is in every single way. Because the way I look at it is when you think about alcohol and addiction in its widest sense, but alcohol in the workplace because it is societally and allowed, know, and encouraged in many ways. And in our industry, certainly has become a core part of those shared joy moments, you know, going to the pub.

And so if you look at that spectrum, we’re so much better now in acknowledging and facilitating those that don’t drink. And it’s wonderful and it’s great and it’s brilliant that we are much more accommodating now to the fact that some people choose not to drink and for some people that’s a religious reason, for some people it’s a health reason, some people generationally just choose not to drink. And so I think we are so much better acknowledging that side of the extreme.

What I don’t think we’re very good at is acknowledging that another end of the extreme does exist. And so it’s understanding the impact, you know, if someone isn’t quite in a place where they have stopped drinking yet, and somebody is in this, you know, alcohol use disorder spectrum…

Natalie Bell (11:28.402)

They could be anywhere along that blurry line before it hits that real extreme. And so as a result, if we’re not talking about it, people don’t understand enough about where they are on that line. And we don’t understand enough about those that might have already hit that extreme and are desperately hiding it and not knowing where to go for help.

Louise (11:48.614)

Can we pick up on the alcohol use disorder? So does that mean someone that’s regularly drinking too much but not quite at peak addiction levels or how are we describing that?

Natalie Bell (11:58.49)

Exactly, yes exactly and you know it’s an unhealthy relationship and it will be different for different people. I think what’s interesting about alcohol is that we don’t talk about it and therefore what we all remember really is the government guidance on what good alcohol usage units are.

We all remember units right? It’s basically the one thing that seems to have been constant but that everyone has a different response to alcohol depending on where you’re at in your life, depending on your own metabolism. And equally, alcohol itself has become more and more alcoholic over the years.

It’s interesting, I was reading something the other day about how wine itself has become more alcoholic because of the nature of where and how it’s produced. So there’s a different relationship that everyone has with alcohol and there is a point at which it becomes unhealthy for that individual.

That’s when you move into a problem with the relationship you have with it, even when it’s unhealthy to you, that you continue that relationship.

Louise (13:06.176)

That we tend to have quite binary conversations about alcohol from what I’ve noted in our industry, you’re either the person saying no I’m not drinking at all, or you’re on your fifth pint and you’re still going. Is there one thing that you could suggest is a better way forward, where people might just be able to enjoy one drink and leave it and not get hassled, or where you can say, ‘I’m not drinking,’ and it’s okay, or if you have got an issue with alcohol and you want to talk about it with someone? I’ve realised that that’s a lot of questions in one.

Natalie Bell (13:38.516)

But herein lies the challenge, right? Because most of them aren’t answered. so if you look at it, so just take it back to me for a second, I have had moments in my life where I’ve had a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. But I am acutely aware, because of my lived experience, of what that can mean to me. And in those moments, I’m aware that it’s unhealthy, but I’ve been able to pull myself back from it.

But that’s because I’m acutely aware. So I think the first thing is just raising people’s understanding of the impact that alcohol can have on them. And, you know, in moments when people are really struggling mentally through periods, obviously the damage that alcohol can have on you, when you think it’s helping and it’s really not, you know, we need to raise awareness around that.

Natalie Bell (14:41.322)

But I think the other side of this is I’m quite happy to stand up and say, ‘I drink and I choose to drink and I enjoy a drink,’ and, you know, and I’m not anti-booze, right? This is what I really need to make very clear. I’m not anti-booze.

And I think often when we’re seeing people talk about this, they come at it from an, ‘I’m sober, let me talk to you about why,’ and immediately people will withdraw from that because they’re not in a place where they ever want to be sober. And so it becomes quite difficult. I always talk, there’s a lot of judgment from those that drink on those that don’t, judgment from those that don’t on those that do, you know, and it’s just, it’s just so complex.

But I think it’s really important that the conversation is I’m not anti-booze. I’m all for drinking, but it has to be a healthy relationship with alcohol. So let’s make people aware physically and mentally what unhealthy relationships look like. And so I think that’s one part of it is just prepare, know, just giving people the tools and the conversation, much like we do with mental health and part of that is then offering people the support and the resources when they feel that it’s becoming unhealthy. And so, as I said earlier, I’m a big fan of preventative therapy.

Natalie Bell (17:25.715)

So I do believe in preventative therapy and making sure that people get access to that just to talk through where they think they’re at.

So I think the challenge becomes if we say to people, you have a problem with alcohol, you have an addictive problem with alcohol, and therefore go and see someone that becomes a crisis therapy.

I think what’s really important is if someone’s starting to feel that it’s quite unhealthy, that they can have a conversation to talk that through with someone at that moment before it becomes extreme. So I’m a big believer in that. Also, then it gets really complicated, because what I’ve discovered along my journey of education on this is also we’re not equipped professionally to support people as well as we might hope we are.

In the UK, we’re quite unusual in that the Equalities Act doesn’t mitigate people with alcohol addiction. So if someone has a problem with alcohol and they disclose, that can still be seen as a performance issue, not an illness, and so they could be fired legally.

And it is a very, immediately when I found out about this, I was horrified. But it is a complex subject because if you’re a doctor or a teacher or someone that operates machinery, you can see why it is a problem, but there’s no nuance at all in the basic law.

Natalie Bell (19:03.174)

And so it’s on us and we’re looking at this at the moment is on us as employers to look at our policies and therefore how the policies support people. Because the last thing we want is there to be a fear of raising a hand to say, ‘I’m not OK,’ in this space. So it’s on us to then prepare for that. And then I think the big thing is making sure that people know they’ve got somewhere to go.

And that’s why think NABS is so important, because even if we create the conditions in a workplace environment, that someone can say, help I’ve got a problem. I think this is the one issue where you can’t do that with your line manager and you won’t do that with your people team because it just, you you’re then labelled as that person and you know, it’s just too sensitive a subject. And so I think, you know, NABS therefore provide such an amazing service for people to do it in a really safe, comfortable space at that moment of need.

Louise (19:58.636)

Well, thank you, Natalie. I was just about to say NABS’ Advice Line is here for any of the issues that we’ve been speaking about, and we are completely impartial. We’re outside of your workplace. So yeah, just give us a call. Again, we’ll pop the link in the show notes.

A lot of this ties in with your other passion, again, a NABS passion, management. And in fact, we’re speaking today on the launch of our Managers, Mindsets program. So we’ve identified that more than 40 % of people who experience mental wellness challenges want to talk to their line manager. Addiction problems, perhaps notwithstanding. But managers aren’t always equipped to have these conversations. They don’t always have the time to do these conversations. And I know you’re very good at what you see as the problems for managers in our industry and how we can go about solving them.

Natalie Bell (20:48.252)

Yes, and we had a wonderful leadership summit last week, I think, to discuss this. I do, just, I think we have a real problem in our industry that we as leaders need to solve. And we can’t turn back time on it. So we need to help address it, which is, as the all years research has shown, you know, we have the most acute pressure from a personal stress.

Natalie Bell (21:18.398)

And a professional stress perspective is hitting our manager level, and by which, I don’t mean senior management, right? I mean people that are relatively new to managing people. And that’s been borne out by so many things. That’s structurally, you know, we went through a period post-COVID where we, particularly on the agency side, we over promoted and people moved around a lot. We have very high levels of churn the year after COVID. I think, you know, from an agency perspective, we hit up to 40 % churn.

So people are moving around. They’re not getting the development needs, they’re not getting the managerial training, they’re not learning through osmosis in the same way. And then we know that as a generation and an age, know, this is a generation that more acutely feel anxiety and quite rightly disclose that, which is great, you know, but they are feeling it more.

And then they’re managing people that have more diverse needs, including their own challenges with stress and anxiety. So I just think it’s a real pressure point and we have to support both sort of around the edges, but also with training for the individual on how, on what a manager’s job looks like now.

Louise (22:32.32)

Yeah, and it’s important to point out it’s different. It’s not just how you do a review and how you do your team’s timesheets. What we’ve been looking at and we’re offering now is how you have mental wellness conversations with your team, how you create inclusive atmospheres in which people can thrive, how you really crucially look after your own self as a manager and how you set those boundaries, because when people are coming to you talking about their problems you need to know how to protect yourself and to recover as well.

Natalie Bell (23:01.95)

Yes, absolutely. You know, I always talk about in my role, one of my most important jobs is the duty of care to the people that, you know, within the agency. And I think that must never flow down to a manager. You know, that’s my duty of care to my people.

But a manager level, as you say, it’s how you create the right conditions for people, but then acknowledge when it is not your role to provide that duty of care. And that’s when you can fall back on the right conditions that the workplace has created for you as that manager, right? Because it’s really tough. It’s really tough. We always do that in my day. And I think too often the in my day is, well, we just put up with stuff and we get on with it. But let me flip that. In my day, I did not have to manage teams with all of the…

Louise (23:48.831)

Exactly.

Natalie Bell (23:58.348)

…roles and jobs that people have to do now in managing teams, you know, and so I really feel for our managers and I, you know, we just need to support and train them and develop them and give them the right resources to do that better.

Louise (24:11.582)

I would point out that a lot of this is about signposting as well, as if you’re listening to this thinking, no, I’ve got to help my whole team through their issues. Well, no, actually what you need to do is listen and say, call NABS. And then we can take the conversation forward from there. You’ve just got to be there for people, which leads me to my next question. How do you like to talk about mental wellness with your employees?

 

Natalie Bell (24:33.306)

Well, I like to talk about it, so that’s I think the biggest thing. And also, you know, I’m always in favour of people that are comfortable, you know, not everyone is, but comfortable being vulnerable because it’s important that people know that, you know, we all have tough times and none of us are superhumans.

You know, I grew up in a period where everyone we looked up to was superhuman and that was worshipped and I just, you know, that isn’t, I don’t think, the right thing to be doing because it just makes people feel even more… even more crap when they don’t feel they’re performing at that level. We talk about it a lot. Talk about mental wellness, you know, and it is about, you know, getting ahead of your mental health, not just, as I said, in those moments of crisis. And I’m a big believer in talking therapy. a massive believer in walking therapy as well. Thank you for the NABS Walk and Talk. Some of our teams did that.

Louise (25:33.546)

Walk and Talk, big up for next year.

Natalie Bell (25:35.7)

Yeah, but you know, just go out and get a walk. It’s an incredibly therapeutic thing. And we make sure that we provide all the resources we can to let people know that it’s there. I think as an industry, we’re doing so much better in this space, so much better. I think actually one of our challenges now is simplifying where people can go for help, actually, because we do so much now, so that there’s almost too much noise around it when someone’s in a moment when they need to find help. So yeah, so I think that’s the job actually to be done now a little is simplifying access points to support.

Louise (26:19.97)

Yeah, agreed. And that’s why calling the NABS Advice Line can be a real help actually, because we’ve got links with various organisations. So we know who to signpost to and we can, as you say, simplify that process for you. Is there anything in particular that’s happening at your place that you want to shout about? That’s a great mental wellness initiative that we can learn from or how your managers are being supported these days?

Natalie Bell (26:47.922)

So we, so one thing we do a lot of now is a sort of a tea and biscuits break. We have a wonderful client, in McVitie, so it always works well. But, but, you know, just, just getting people to come and have a moment and to just chat to other people and just step outside of the day job a bit.

We do a lot of conversation circles as well, particularly around some, you know, some very horrific things that are happening in our world that impact people differently and just trying to make sure that, you know, give people the spaces to talk about them and to understand each other’s opinion on it and that that’s a safe space and I think that’s a big part of mental wellness, you know, because obviously people are impacted hugely from things going on. So there are a couple of good things.

We also have a therapy provider that we offer modular therapy with so that anyone can access that whenever they want.

The other thing is, you know, I’m a woman of a certain age, so I am firmly now starting to feel the hormonal impact of perimenopause. Yes. And… right.

Louise (27:58.401)

Yes, aren’t we all? Certainly on this podcast we are.

Natalie Bell (28:05.484)

And I think it’s so important that we talk about that because, you know, for senior leaders in the workplace, that is impacting a lot of people and all credit to a fellow CEO of mine, Ali Reid, who recently published an open letter about her experience going through menopause. So I think for more senior female leaders, we need to open up that subject as well. It’s a crucial part of mental wellness.

Yeah, so I yeah, just lots of modular therapy, lots of signposting, lots of smaller things day to day to open up conversation and then addressing some of the bigger topics head on.

Louise (28:41.614)

There’s some really great stuff there. The top two topics of conversation amongst the NABS staffers, by the way, are ADHD and menopause. So, you’re in good company.

I wanted to ask a question about those conversation circles in case anyone listens to this since they want to take it forward into their organisation, because it strikes me that has to be done very carefully. And without going into the actual subject matter, because I think we can all imagine what kinds of things are being discussed.

Natalie Bell (28:50.26)

All right.

Natalie Bell (29:01.704)

Yes.

Louise (29:07.074)

How do you make sure that those are held and moderated in a safe way? Do you get external facilitators in to do those?

 

Natalie Bell (29:13.724)

No, we don’t actually, although we have had some bigger sessions like that where we have worked with people like Utopia, for example, to facilitate on certain topics, especially at a leadership level, to create that safe space and ensure that people feel… Just taking a step back, I think… around DEI in general, know, and neurodivergence and mental health sits within that as well, albeit mental health is obviously, mental wellness is obviously slightly different.

At leadership levels, we just try and encourage as much as possible open, honest discussion about people’s points of view on stuff. Because the worst thing is, I was always taught from a very early point in my career to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And if you don’t allow for safe spaces where people can be uncomfortable, then people will shy away completely and not engage. And I think the same is the same of conversation circles around subject matters.

We have to be all credit to Omnicom Media Group for this, encouraging us to do it across the group and learning from each other’s approaches. They do have to be handled sensitively with enough balance, I think, between those that are going through a lived experience on the subject matter and those that aren’t but feel comfortable in that space. Then, you know, and it has to be both parties because otherwise you end up with conversation circles that are just about those with lived experiences. Let’s take a live one recently around the riots.

Louise (30:44.524)

Yep.

Louise (30:49.847)

Yeah.

Natalie Bell (30:50.034)

You know, an exceptionally sensitive subject where it was so useful to hear, you know, how people were feeling and to give them a safe space to share that and for everyone else to understand exactly what that meant. But we use the same facilitators who have been through that role and have some level of training as well from within the teams, often from our people teams, for example, because it’s so important.

Louise (31:10.606)

Hmm.

 

Louise (31:20.086)

I think it’s a really brave initiative. How does the advertising and marketing community lift you up?

Natalie Bell (31:29.527)

Gosh, I’m known for saying I love this industry. I love this industry. I do. just think it offers so much that other industries don’t. And one of those for me is I’m a big people person. you know, the ability, I hate the word networking, because it sounds like there’s only one goal in what you’re doing. But I just love being around industry events and chatting to people and find out what everyone else is doing. just, you know, just the buzz and the camaraderie that our industry offers inside and outside of the places we work.

Louise (31:49.155)

Yep.

Natalie Bell (32:07.016)

But also, I just think if you always say to my team, if you ever want to get involved in anything, it exists in our industry. If you want to change the world in some way, there is an opportunity to lean into something that will give you that thing that matters to you to deliver on. And so actually, the industry lifts me because I love the camaraderie that exists and also because I do genuinely believe we can make a difference in so many ways, both as employers, but also in the role we play in culture and society. So yeah, yeah, does that answer the question?

Louise (32:47.54)

It does. And that’s why you get involved with NABS and why you get involved with WACL, because you enjoy the community and the chance to give back to the industry and to make change happen.

Natalie Bell (32:51.855)

Yeah.

Natalie Bell (32:59.284)

Yeah, and I there’s a lovely thing, isn’t it? You don’t realise it sometimes until a bit later in your career, but that whole thing of gratitude and giving back lifts you more actually than often self-achievement. And it is a genuine thing. It takes a while to realise it, but it really does make a difference to your own mood, I think.

Louise (33:21.8)

I believe we’ve got to the final question. This has been such a great chat. What’s the best lesson you’ve learned about how to support yourself?

 

Natalie Bell (33:30.478)

I’m still learning because it is, you know, there’s always different, different things going on, I said, definite sort of hitting up against menopause at the moment. But I is I think having a trusted ear, actually someone that you can I’ve had it a couple of times where I’ve sort of almost asked for help very quietly.

And I’m not, I know I come across as someone who wears my heart on my sleeve and I’ve told you all of my lived experiences and I’m really open. That has not been me throughout life. You know, I’m quite a closed, I can be quite a strong person and I keep it all inside. And even when I feel like I’ve asked for help, I don’t think I have in a very loud way.

And so I think having a trusted ear that says, ‘You okay? ‘And you can go, ‘I’m really not.’ And they know, right, that means you’re not. And for me in the past, that’s actually been a leadership coach. I’ve been very lucky to have one, but also a couple of dear friends in the industry that I know. So I think if you can find those trusted ears that know you and know when you’re saying, I need help, and you really mean it, and you might not be saying it quite loud enough for others, but they know what it means when they hear it. I think that’s really important.

Louise (34:59.49)

Natalie, it’s been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today and you have been so open and so clear in your thinking as well. It’s been an absolute joy speaking to you. Thank you so much and I wish you much continued joy as you carry on enlightening others.

Natalie Bell (35:18.923)

Thank you, Louise. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for being lovely with me.

Louise (35:22.424)

Thank you.